This is by far the most difficult time of the year to do posts. Not because there's nothing to talk about, but because there's a ton to talk about and it all relates to "what should the Chiefs do in the offseason?" Which leads to tons of repetition and lots of comments to the effect of, "oh great, another post like this." (Apparently people miss the irony of making a comment that's overused when complaining about topics that are overused, but I digress).
Anyways, if I had it my way I'd be breaking down why the Chiefs have a snowball's chance in Hell at winning in the playoffs. Sadly, though, the Chiefs decided to let Richard Seymour block two FGs (a mystifying strategic decision, no?) and that dream is not a reality.
So instead... to the offseason!
I happen to be one of those who tries (and generally fails) to walk the fine line between optimism and homerism. And the optimist in me tells me we're (kind of) close. But to figure out where we're going, we need to figure out where we're AT right now. Thus, any talk about the future is meaningless without figuring out who we have right now, and how they've performed up until now.
So I'm starting the first of many breakdowns in which I'm going to put every position group under the microscope, starting with the defensive line.
In case you're curious (or perhaps to establish at least SOME credibility), here's how I do this type of post... I start with basic stats. Then, after reminding myself that stats tell roughly half of the story(and in many cases less than that), I move onto ProFootballFocus stats (where they do unbelievably detailed breakdowns of every player in every snap), which are much more of a clear picture as to how a player has done (although still not infallible by any stretch). Then I spend at least an hour watching snaps in which the player was in (which is how I form the majority of my opinion).
That said, let's talk about defensive linemen... (by the way, I'll end all of my discussions with a 1-10 rating of the need to upgrade the position, with 1 being, "this guy is a guy I'd rather cut my arm off than replace" and 10 being "I'd give my arm to have this guy upgraded by even an AVERAGE player")
*****Final Late note. In trying to be as in depth as possible, I realized that there is simply no way to cover the entire defensive line in one post. So we're going to look at Glenn Dorsey and Allen Bailey today. Seriously, I'm getting WAY in depth here. ProFootballFocus and a few hours of staring at the games tends to make that happen. So know in advance you're looking at over 2500 words on two players here. This is for diehards only*****

I may as well start with a guy who was, in my opinion, one of our disappointments this year. Dorsey had improved significantly every year until now, and he's at best been the same guy as last year. In all honesty, he seemed more regressed than anything else to me.
Now I could talk about putting a square peg into a round hole, but this isn't the place for your filthy dirty-talk. Suffice it to say that I really don't care WHAT position Dorsey "is most suited for." I care about how he's playing here, now, as a 3-4 DE. And the answer is.... "meh."
Not exactly a ringing endorsement, is it? Well, it's about as honest as I can get. Here's the good news on Dorsey: he's still very solid against the run. PFF gives him a high rating (2nd in the NFL, actually), and after watching a great deal of game tape, I partially agree. He's a good run stopper and doesn't give a lot of ground. He's also not bad at detaching himself from his blocker and making a play as the runner tries to get by him. Both good things. I don't think he's the second best run stopper in the league at his position, but he's good.
There is, however, bad news on several fronts. The fist bit of bad news: Dorsey does not draw many double teams. Now, this is in part due to our scheme. However, given the number of times I saw him singled up, he should be more of an impact player than he is. It's well known here that the DE in a 3-4 is supposed to eat blocks and let LBs make plays. If you're a DE and you're getting singled 80 percent of the time and NOT beating those single blockers? That's bad news.
The other bad news is worse: Glenn Dorsey cannot rush the passer. The man is epically bad at it. PFF says this in its stats, and game tape review confirms it. Honestly, when he's trying to rush the passer he basically looks like a fat dude waddling around out there being stonewalled by a single blocker. And yes, I KNOW that it's not the primary responsibility for a 3-4 DE to rush the passer. But again, he's not eating up double teams on those downs either. Which means all he's doing is occupying one guy while not applying any pressure at all.
So here's the dilemma: Dorsey's good at one aspect of his job and EPICALLY bad at the other aspect. And this while being single teamed much more than Kelly Gregg or Tyson Jackson on the snaps I viewed. That second part worries me more than the first. For guy facing one blocker much of the time, he's not doing as much as the ideal guy would. When you throw that in with his utter lack of ability to rush the passer, and you're looking at a guy who isn't exactly a position of strength for our D.
And before you use the argument that it doesn't matter whether he can rush the passer or eat double teams when trying to pass rush, since he gets subbed out on clear passing downs, consider this... Dorsey rushed the passer on 244 downs last year. That's 244 downs in which we had an absolutely horrible pass rusher providing 2 hits, 2 pressures, and no batted passes. In other words, Dorsey was asked to rush the passer almost a quarter of our defensive snaps last year, and only even scared the QB 4 times. It's a BIG DEAL that he's terrible at it, and how terrible he is.
"Need to Upgrade Level": 5
I was one of Dorsey's most staunch defenders for the last several years. Heck, I even did an "arguing with idiots" segment talking about why trading him was a stupid idea. However, in his fourth year, with more talent around him on defense, he regressed rather than progressed. He failed to take advantage of seeing fewer double teams than the rest of our linemen, which basically means he's not winning the matchups that our scheme is designed to give him (talk to Kalo about this, he explains the "scheme" stuff better)
On the other side of that, he's still good against the run, and good run stoppers are something you don't want to throw away without a clear upgrade. He has value for our team, even if it's just situational value. The biggest issue is the lack of an ability to either rush the passer OR occupy a double team when offenses pass against our 3-4. He needs to be able to do at least one of these things in order to be considered a "good" starter in a 3-4, and he does neither.
Hence, the "meh." He's all right, but doesn't do enough to even qualify as anything better than average. Yes, he's an impressive run stopper, but that's about it. And even as a run stopper, he struggles against double teams. Now, maybe he's been playing injured or something this year, but at this point we have to ask if his deficiencies rushing the passer (or occupying a double team when it's time to rush the passer) are worth putting up with.
LONG story short, based on deep stats and game film, Dorsey a guy who CAN be a part of a great defense, but only if there are multiple other pass rushers on the team. He simply cannot do it. Four years into his career, this is unlikely to change. Frankly, I'm not all that comfortable with one of our starting players being so limited and would like to see the position upgraded. That said, it's not enough of a need to waste valuable picks that are needed elsewhere, especially when we have...
***
Allen Bailey
All right, let's get a few things out of the way. I know he's a rookie. I know he was just a rotational player last year. And I know that many will think I'm GUZZLING Kool-Aid if I think Bailey is our long term solution. But hear me out! Seriously, the man killed an alligator with a shovel and looks like he was assembled in a factory where they create men to fight an imminent alien invasion, but escaped by killing his guards with sheer masculinity as his sole weapon. He deserves a fair shake. And even if he doesn't, he's scary. So hear me out, because he probably still has that shovel and will find you if you don't...
We'll start off with his base stats. He's given credit for 8 solo tackles, 2 assists, and 1 sack. It should be 2 sacks, but apparently the rule is that if Tim Tebow is hit behind the line of scrimmage after he takes off, it must be a run play (which really says everything about his style of quarterbacking, but I again digress). Those stats don't pop out much, but let's delve to the next step, shall we?
Looking at PFF's advanced statistics, we see a little more about Bailey's rookie year (again, these stats are by no means infallible, just more detailed than standard stats). First, we see that Bailey was rushing that passer 226 of his snaps, as opposed to defending the run on 68 of his snaps. This should come as no surprise, seeing as he was usually subbed in on passing downs to rush the passer.
Next, when looking ONLY at PFF's stats, a pattern emerges. Through the first 8 games of the season, Bailey's "ratings" both as a pass rusher and a run defender are consistently below average, if only slightly. Through the second half of the year, however, a different pattern emerges as he gets above average grades as a pass rusher and a run defender in the majority of games. He ends the season with a positive grade in both categories, something only 8 other 3-4 DE's in the entire NFL accomplish.
All well and good, but what the crap does that really MEAN? Even advanced statistics tell only part of the story. So what does the most important aspect of judging a player (game tape) say?
Well, for starters, his early game tape (I watched every snap he played the first 3 games) is not impressive. Early in the season he showed some push when rushing the passer (some, not much), but was stonewalled or ridden out of the play against the run. he also was able to get zero push when doubled. So in other words... bleh (I'm getting technical on you now!).
Fast forward to the middle of the season. The very first snap he plays against the Raiders (also known as the Kendrick Lewis pick-six). Bailey gets OAK's center one-on-one and just SHOVES the guy back toward the Kyle Boller. The pressure he helped provide was a big reason for the pick. Nice start to the "middle of the season" tape.
That play does not represent how Bailey played in much of midseason. He was by no means as strong or dominant for many of the snaps as we see on that play. However, there is a noticeable difference when he's being blocked by one guy. He's getting some push now and not getting completely rolled over on running plays. The improvement is more noticeable if one looks at tape from Week 1 and then tape from Week 7 or Week 8. It's not large, but it's there. He is, however, still getting completely blown out of the water when double teamed, and is nowhere near as good as one would like against the run.
Fast forward again to Weeks 11 and 12, the Patriots and Steelers games. Here you's see Bailey getting a little more push when matched up against individual linemen. He also is noticeably better at using his speed to get to one side or the other of a blocking lineman and push towards the QB. He's still failing to recognize running plays, though, and as a result at times gets washed completely out of the play. The biggest difference I see when watching these games is that he's not getting physically pushed off the line when the offense runs. He's still not holding as firmly as T-Jax or Dorsey, but he's not getting pushed around the way he was at the beginning of the year either.
Looking at tape to end the season, I saw more of the same. Bailey showed the capability to beat single linemen when rushing the passer, and to hold his ground on rushing plays when he doesn't over-commit to the pass. Overall, his improvement from the beginning of the season to the end is pretty remarkable (although it's not at an Eric Berry rate of improvement).
"Need to Upgrade Level": 2
I'm not just on the Allen Bailey bandwagon, I'm leading his parade. I'm passing out pamphlets. I'm hiring planes to make smoke signals in the sky that say, "I think Allen Bailey is going to be a stud!" I'll give my reasons, then add a few cautionary notes.
First of all, I like the fact that Bailey improved at a pretty rapid rate throughout the season. You could see the difference Week 1 to Week 8, and again in Week 17. He seemed stronger, his technique was improved, and he was making decent plays more often than bad plays.
Second of all, Bailey is a physical freak. The difference in speed/quickness between him and Wallace Gilberry is insane, especially considering that Gilberry is listed as TWENTY POUNDS LIGHTER than Bailey. That's just crazy. Bailey is one of the fastest players I've ever seen at nearly 290 pounds. He's also, in case you didn't notice, an absolute Adonis. He looks like his body fat percentage is in the negatives. You just don't see guys his size built like that. That physical "freakness" flashed at times this season when he was matched up individually against linemen who weren't quick enough to handle his first step or strong enough to recover when he got leverage on them. His only downfall was really technique. Tons of potential here, and it was beginning to be realized as the year went on.
Third, I like the fact that despite being put in there to rush the passer on most downs he played, he still was able to do decently against the run as the year went along. Now, a warning; there aren't enough snaps of him playing the run to make a final judgment one way or the other here. But based on what I saw, he looks like a guy who can handle the run when he sees it coming and isn't in "pass rush" mode. I really wish he'd have seen more snaps on running downs.
So what to do with Bailey? Where he stands right now, he's not as good against the run as Dorsey (again, keep in mind that Bailey was in to rush the passer, which puts him at a disadvantage when the other team runs the ball), but he's better at it than Wallace Gilberry. And from what I saw, he developed into just as good a pass rusher as GIlberry by the end of the season, if not better. And he's LIGHT YEARS ahead of Dorsey in that department. What that means to me is we have in Bailey a potential 3 down 3-4 DE, and a guy who can provide some pass rush out of or base 3-4 (where we're really not getting any pass rush other than Hali unless we blitz Houston as well).
In my opinion, and based on what I saw over about 150 or so snaps, Bailey needs to do two things this offseason: work on technique and gain a little weight. His technique is still sloppy, despite being improved, and it results in him getting handled by linemen who he physically outmatches. The "getting bigger" part is crucial as well, and I don't necessarily mean just go to the weight room. I honestly don't know if he could get much more muscle on him. However, he could easily throw on 15 extra pounds. I wouldn't have a problem with this even if most of it was fat, for the simple reason that he's SO quick/fast for his size that losing a little of it wouldn't hurt him. On the flip side of that, if he puts on some extra weight he'll be able to handle double teams better, and be able to hold up more firmly on rushing downs.
***
The END
Finally, right? End game on these two is that I see Bailey as a replacement for Dorsey in the not-too-distant future. He's already a better pass rusher by a mile, and he clearly (from what I saw) has the potential to be a good run defender as well. As far as Dorsey goes... After years of saying it'd be stupid to trade him, I've gotten on board with that train. His contract will be up soon, he stopped improving last year at a level unacceptable to me for a starting DE, and I just can't swallow having a player who is a liability on hundreds of plays a year.
I held out hope that Dorsey would continue improving in our scheme this year, and he didn't. Instead, he regressed a little. Given how close he is to walking anyways, and the fact that we have a guy who I believe (with an offseason adding a little more bulk and a full training camp to work on technique) can replace him, it's time to get something for him before it's too late.
25 recs | 348 comments
Wow
Those Dorsey numbers were flat out depressing. Ugh.
SCKSChief - January 5, 2012
Exactly
I can deal with a guy being a “not so good” pass rusher at his position if he can stop the run (which Dorsey can). But he’s EPICALLY bad at it, and doesn’t even demand double teams to stonewall on passing plays.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Stopping the run is this d's priority not sacking the passer
I’m not sure I’m ready to wave goodbye to a guy who’s really good at it.
just a guy - January 5, 2012 via mobile
Me neither
However, if a guy can stop the run almost as well as Dorsey and rush the passer 10x better…
Not that Bailey is there yet. He’s not. But the potential is certainly there, so it’s something to keep an eye on.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
Without reading it all just yet...
Decided to drop out of law school eh? I imagine this will take a metric shitload of time to complete all the position groups. Don’t get me wrong, I am ALL for it. I really couldn’t care less about the draft until it actually happens. All the mock BS and combine trash just bores me to tears.
Kudos to you sir for taking on this massive undertaking.
P.S. – It could use more ninja pics.
TheScootness - January 5, 2012
it HAS Ninja pics ... you're just not fast enough to see them
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Needs more ninja pics? Ninja cat pics I deliver
nateforchiefs - January 5, 2012
Haha it's pretty time consuming
However, it’ll be easier with other players. Since Dorsey and Bailey get swapped out, I have to sift through defensive snaps to find them.
With other players, like our secondary (at least, the guys who matter enough for me to break down), will be easier.
ProFootballFocus stats make it much, MUCH easier as well. Bewsaf’s stuff’ll help too….
But yeah, even with all that I’d be surprised if I don’t shorten these up in the future.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I look forward to the secondary. Maybe you can solve the mystery of how our coverage got so much better later in the year.
I think it’ll be tough to find tape that shows those guys throughout the play, though, like Kalo always says.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
one thing that springs to mind immediately ...
Bears with Hanie, Tebow, Sanchez, an out-of-nowhere event vs Rodgers, Palmer being Palmer = not exactly murderer’s row there (Packers aside, and that was a “special” game anyway) … Big Ben with a broken thumb
upamtn - January 5, 2012
First half of the season, our QB
was the leading passer in three games (McNabb, Boller/Palmer, and the Miami fiasco). We got out-thrown by Fitzpatrick, Stafford, Rivers (twice), and Painter.
Second half of the season, our QB was the leading passer 6 out of 8 games. Only Brady and Roethliss out-threw us.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
but that was a different QB vs Pats and Steelers ...
and it wasn’t even Cassel :-)
Brady does that to a lot of people (outpass ’em) … McNabb, Boller/Palmer (with 2 hrs of practice time) … yeah, big deal, right?
Fitz, Stafford, Rivers even Painters, to be expected
upamtn - January 5, 2012
So you didn't see our secondary getting better as the year went on?
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
oh, not saying that at all ... just that you can't evenly compare stats from games w/o taking into acct quality of opponent
sure teams outpassed Palko, so what? you could outpass Palko … none of which is to say that we DIDN’T improve (and I’d certainly hope that we would, especially given that Crennel had to “change the scheme” because of the Berry injury)
I also think we saw major improvement from Houston over time, and that helped as well, given his pass rushing skills seemed to be lacking early on … his improvement would naturally lead to a more hurried passer, which would in turn lead to … see what I mean?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
You're the one who tried to bring logic and reason into this.
I just said our coverage got better and called it a “mystery.”
And actually, my point was that Palko DID outpass TWO other teams. That says something to me about how well we held those opposing QBs down later in the year. Now, you could say that Hanie and Sanchez aren’t good QBs, but then that would imply that you think Palko is better than two other QBs. There, gotya trapped :)
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Check
your move Ups
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I already know how he could get out of it.
But I ain’t gonna tell him.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
logic? reason? sorry, too late ... already used it all on other comments
I am now officially braindead
/begin snarky comments in 3, 2, 1 …
upamtn - January 5, 2012
wait ... ORTON for the save!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I vote that MN compares Orton and Cassel for his next reviewing post.
Or did Kwhite already do enough?
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
meh, played out long ago ...
upamtn - January 5, 2012
We only discuss those players on our roster
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I knew there was a reason I liked you
… and the BBQ, of course
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I may never even get around to QB's...
That one has been done by so many people, and been debated so many times, no one may get around to it.
Seriously these take forever, and I may not get around to everyone on the team. I’ll just break down the players who are interesting to discuss. I may even take a break to write something less “serious” every now and then…
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Clearly he needs to take his king and his rook
And Cassel
TRSChief - January 6, 2012
Um...............great, another
post like this……….;>}
G.L. - January 5, 2012
I know what you mean
Gotta get some original material :)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Is it possible
That Glenn Dorsey was performing his main job of holding the line of scrimmage so Tamba Hali and Derrick Johnson could perform their jobs better? I mean if both Hali and Dorsey were attacking the QB who is supposed to hold the front on the QB pocket?
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Did you really read this?
SCKSChief - January 5, 2012
sure i did
Tamba Hali and Derrick Johnson are Pro-Bowlers
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Cause he went over that point
ad nauseum.
SCKSChief - January 5, 2012
I disagree with his assumption
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
By assumptions
you mean stats and numbers that show Dorsey was terrible at his job regardless of being single-blocked 80% of the time?
SCKSChief - January 5, 2012
He didn't say he was terrible at his job
He said he was terrible at rushing the passer. An I think if he had included Gregg and Jackson is this assessment you would find the offense clearly did not have enough lineman to double team every D-lineman.
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Oi vey
SCKSChief - January 5, 2012
not to pile on :)
but we play a two gap defense, which does not necessarily say that a player has to eat double teams to do his job. Just control the B and C gaps would be Jackson’s and Dorsey’s job
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
For the love of...
He expressed this. Why are you arguing this with me?
SCKSChief - January 5, 2012
because he can...
and its free
Chiefshero - January 5, 2012
and because he knows his stuff (huge grin) and because he did a majority of the actual research that went into this post
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I did not
this is all MN’s Fault
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
oh ...
well see? I knew it was a better post than … oh wait, never mind ;-)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
DO you feel my Stare ?
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
haha oh you two
TheScootness - January 5, 2012
oh sorry ... did you say something?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
rec
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Hey!
I spent at least 4 hours watching game tape!
My eyes hurt, and you mock me???? :)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
(head down in shame)
I know, I need to mock the draft instead
wait! 4 hours? that’s IT? pfffffft … lazy, hypocritical, idiotic AND bare and that’s all I have to say about it
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Yeah, compared to Kalo and Bewsaf it was practically nothing...
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Here's what I saw...
On running plays, you’re mostly right. He’s a good run stopper, although I have to say it’s less impressive to me that he does so than T-Jax, since he does it with fewer double teams.
On PASSING downs, I didn’t see that at all. The vast majority of times I watched him rush the passer, he just got stonewalled despite making every effort to get past his (usually) lone blocker.
He isn’t controlling anything when he rushes the passer. He gets controlled by one guy almost every time.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Was talking about this in another thread.
His hips aren’t loose enough for pass rush moves. If he can’t bowl a guy over or flash straight through like he did in college, he doesn’t have many moves to resort to. His training camp matches against Albert are loud and entertaining, but mostly amount to straight shoving.
I’ll be interested in seeing how TJax compares.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
that's usually the case ... someone gets singled, the question is and where and for how long
I asked (way below) do either of these guys get a higher % of doubles than some (imaginary) league average, or more as a % of snaps than the other guy (with adjustments made for run v pass situations) and that’s likely something that would require a viewing of every snap of every game … not gonna happen
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Yeah, that stat I don't have access to
Based on the “eye test” of what I watched so far, Dorsey very rarely gets doubled. T-Jax more so.
You’d have to ask Kalo that one.
I wish PFF broke that stat down as well.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
no worries ... just something that popped into my pointy lil head
I’m not a guru like you or Mills or Steve, much less Kalo and Bewsaf … but I do get random bizarre ideas on occasion that at least SOUND halfway “intelligent” (even if they’re so totally off-base and meaningless as to boggle the mind, but hey … I’m THINKING!)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Hey, at least your thoughts are halfway there
Glass half full, right?
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
yup, just like my head :-)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
glass isn't half full
glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
now what does that say about upamtn’s head? (angelic smile)
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
ouch! ya got me!!! :-)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
You must be a programmer.
TRSChief - January 6, 2012
A single blocked Dlineman should be making the offense pay for the disrespect they are showing him.
Dorsey simply doesn’t command double-teams. 80%? Are you kidding me? I’m betting other teams look at our film and say, “Yeah, just put one guy on Dorsey. That’ll nullify him and we can double team the other two or have an extra defender to hold that Hali guy.”
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
to be fair, if a given running play is going to the opposite side of Dorsey, why would the OLine bother with doubling up on him? it would be more likely they'd double at point of attack, no?
and it also stands to reason that teams WOULD run on the opposite side since he’s clearly superior (to Bailey) at defending the run to begin with … so if teams tend to run AWAY from him because he’s good … and thus single-team him … is it fair or accurate to say he’s not doing his job?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Run defense isn't Dorsey's problem
However, teams didn’t (on the snaps that I saw) do well against us running against T-Jax and Houston either. We have a strong run defense in our base formation with Houston out there.
The problem is Dorsey’s AWFUL rushing the passer, even when single teamed. And while being subbed out on obvious passing downs is a partial solution, he was still in there rushing the passer on 244 downs.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I don't know much, but THIS ... this I know!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Great... but this is becoming primarily a passing league.
And we might or might not know that a play is going to be a pass play, only when its obviously should be a passing down, like 2nd and 20 or 3 and 10.
We shouldn’t have to swap out a #5 first round DE on obvious passing downs. He should be able to play both the run and the pass. If he can’t, either he’s not in the correct defense (perhaps the 4-3) or he’s not a superb DE. Which is it?
I think we (we being the Chiefs) need to decide if Dorsey is the future or not. If he’s not… might as well try to trade him this year before his contract ends and get something more for him than the possible compensatory pick we’d get if he leaves in free agency. 2nd or 3rd round pick better than 5th or 6th round pick.
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
well, we have a Pro Bowl WOLB who can't do that ... should we send him packing, too?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Ha
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
What are we paying Hali for?
To defend the pass or sack/pressure the QB in concert with the 3 DLinemen? Which was basically what Jared Allen’s job was when we played the 4-3. He’s the primary edge rusher. That’s why he got paid and why he made the Pro Bowl.
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
right on! and what are we paying Dorsey for? not to rush the passer, that's Hali's job ...
upamtn - January 5, 2012
He is very good at that
superb even
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
No, just to pressure the QB and help collapse the pocket.
Which is what the DL’s job is. And if you can break the dam created by the OL, that’s a bonus.
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
So on the 244 snaps Dorsey was rushing the passer...
He was playing for free?
I guess I don’t think the comparison is very good.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
To be fair though
Tamba goes into coverage about 30% as many snaps as Dorsey is asked to rush the passer, and is not nearly as bad at coverage as Dorsey is at pass rushing (at least according to PFF, haven’t watched the tape)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Show me the 3-4 ends who get paid a ton to stop the run and do absolutely nothing else.
Hint there aren’t many, if any. I’ll show you PLENTY of pass rushers who get paid to do that and ONLY that. Why? Because as they mentioned above, this is a passing league. I hate to admit it because I’ve been a proponent of smash mouth run and stop the run football, but stopping the run is now secondary on defense. You need to be able to pressure the quarterback first and foremost.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
Tell me you didn't notice Dorsey making noticably less plays in the backfield this season.
Against the run. Because I sure did. He is singled a lot and last year he took advantage and blew up some of those plays in the backfield. He didn’t do that this season.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
He did not specifically address this point at all
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I tried to above, a little :)
Although it seems you’re talking more about run defense, at which I think he does a fine job.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
and how much would it weaken us if we plug in a guy NOT as good as Dorsey vs run?
how many times is he run at vs how good is he (more metrics that don’t exist … omg, my head!)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
That's the question
Let’s say Bailey gains a little weight, works on technique, all that stuff….
And when the time comes for opening day he’s roughly half or even three quarters as good against the run as Dorsey. But at the same time, he’s five times better at rushing the passer.
What do you do?
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Keep Bailey in
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
And that's the main point I'm getting at
Bailey, as is, isn’t ready to replace Dorsey in our base package.
However, given how much he improved over the course of the season, especially against the run, it seems logical to think he’ll improve from this year to next.
At a certain point, you need a guy who can do both. Now hopefully he throws on another 10 or 15 pounds. Lord knows he’s got the frame for it.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I really wanted to see Bailey in the base 3-4 this season
As you pointed out Dorsey had a lot of 1 on 1’s in passing situations that he could not take advantage of
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
Nitpicky gym-related disagreement here....
He needs to add strength-weight, not just weight. An O lineman won’t notice an extra 15 pounds of dead weight.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Frankly, I disagree to an extent
I want him to gain as much weight as he can without losing too much speed. I think having an exta 15 pounds DOES make a difference when someone is trying to move you.
That said, I only want him do to it in a way that doesn’t torpedo his speed completely.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
must see TV (ok, internet but check it anyway)
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutdown-corner/nfl-embraced-bcs-instead-silly-playoffs-191623837.html
absolutely hilarious
and it does make you wonder: if Illinois (6-6) and UCLA (6-8) can get into a bowl game, why can’t the Chiefs?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Because we refuse to block Seymour on kicks?:)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Experiment, then.
Go to a gym, set a 290lbs stack of weights on the floor, and push it a few feet. Then add 15lbs to the stack and see how much tougher that makes it to push.
Weight without strength don’t mean much. About 5%.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Gotta modify the experiment
have one stack at 290 and the other at 305. Push both around for as long as you can and see which one tires you out first.
I agree, strength is more important by far. But there’s something to be said for having bulk when someone’s trying to move you.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I would be good at your experiment. I always lifted with high reps.
Strengthless weight decreases impact, too. Dead weight can’t help but slow you down in proportion to the extra weight that your muscles have to move. E equals one-half M times V squared. V is more important.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
then why is it Dex doesn't send defenders into the first row of seats when blocks?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
His own change in velocity is consistent with the principle of conservation of energy: see below.
Brsrkr - January 6, 2012
It's very difficult to stop talking like this once I start.
Brsrkr - January 6, 2012
Let me help your argument... Well, rather.. Let Science help it.
F=MA
The amount of force that the defensive lineman strikes his blocker with most certainly DOES increase JUST by increasing mass.
And your idea that you don’t want him to add so much weight that he loses speed (explosiveness from a dead stop…aka… acceleration) is also perfectly logical.
If the objective is to increase the force of his hit, and thus keep him from being dominated in a force to force match up… then yes… F=MA
So, add Mass while retaining Acceleration.
Texas Chief - January 5, 2012
yes, but you have to maintain the same acceleration (speed)
but, by adding mass you also add inertia …
ah hell, you already know all this shit
upamtn - January 5, 2012
acceleration = speed / time
speed • direction = velocity
Tex, I think what you’re going for is momentum = mass x velocity since this would more directly describe the collision of large solid bodies than the fundamental equation of motion (F = ma, in which the force vectors will eventually have to be translated back into velocity vectors in order to describe visual results, and would have to directly take into account equivalent material spring constants which would introduce relatively high margins of uncertainty). And momentum is conserved in a closed system, so a mass would indeed impart directly proportional velocity to a struck object. But a football game is not a closed system because there are significant inefficiencies due to friction and heat. So the principle of work and energy that I described above (derived by substituting the basic kinematic equation a = v dv / ds into the fundamental equation of motion and integrating both sides; yes, it does all come back to the fundamental equation of motion, but its derivations are necessary intermediate steps to describing a system) would be more useful in describing the complete sum of interactions between Bailey and a random despised rival. Now, if we are only interested in velocity resultants, we have to look beyond the short impacts best described by momentum since the larger portion of trench warfare consists of forces acting over a significant time. If we substitute a = dv / dt into the fundamental equation of motion and integrate both sides, we see that the sum of a particle-equivalent’s linear momentum is, as our intuition might tell us, equal to the sum of the force vectors acting on it over a finite time, which quantity is known as linear impulse. This principle of linear impulse and momentum can be solved in the form mv1 + ∑ (∫ F dt) = mv2. The key is that this equation applies to the entire system as well as to each discrete component of the system. So your dead weight will wear your own ass out exactly as fast as it wears out the opponent.
Sorry about the inaccurate notations, all I’ve got to work with right now is Word and it is apparently designed for
fruityintuitive people.Brsrkr - January 6, 2012
That's great
So why does Weigmann, who is perfectly strong for his size, have problems with guys who weigh more than him but are much fatter?
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
Those guys are also stronger.
I’m just drawing out a not-so-realistic theoretical point. IF a football player added pure dead weight without adding any strength, it would be just as more difficulter (lazy English fail) for him to move himself as it would for an opponent to move him. The only way dead weight helps a football player is if his job is to stay perfectly still, and not even centers or nose tackles do that.
Back to the weight stack workout. When you add the 15lbs, does it matter if you put it on top of the weight stack or strap it on your own back? m / m = 1
Damn, that was a long, weird comment. Happens when you think about dynamics during your late night pee trip, I guess.
Brsrkr - January 6, 2012
All of which I get
Which is why I say I want him to add what weight he can without sacrificing speed.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
Be honest. You just skipped to the last sentence, didn't you?
Brsrkr - January 6, 2012
I did lol
Then skipped passed the whole comment
BAMFSpecialOps - January 6, 2012
I read most of it
But it’s over my head.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
I read every word
But then I’m a math junkie.
Took Algebra, Trig, Calculus, and Physics for college credit while I was in high school.
I’ve always used the excuse that I’m good at math to justify that I can’t spell or use correct grammar.
Texas Chief - January 6, 2012
I took all of that..
Can’t say I remember anything from them, except playin card games in Calc
BAMFSpecialOps - January 6, 2012
Ha! Yeah, math is most useful when it's used as an excuse.
Brsrkr - January 7, 2012
Not just to increase the force of his hit...
I want to see him a little tougher to move for offensive linemen.
When I was watching him, it seemed he needed to be hitting in order to get force. If he got hit first he’d get rocked backward.
Unlike Jackson, who even when he got hit would often barely move.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
right, that's obvious even to an idiot like me ...
… thing is, what if he (Bailey) doesn’t become that proficient? just saying … then keep Dorsey in, or find a replacement (but how do you know if the replacement will be as good as Dorsey?)
it’s all relative :-)
and overthinking stuff is fun!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Well by golly if Bailey doesn't pan out we scrap the 3-4!
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
need to fire that horrible DC we done had, too ... just not gettin' it done, yanno?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
If Bailey doesn't work out as well, we keep trying
Hell flip Tjax to RDE where, to the eye test, Tjax has vastly improved(Thanks for only doing PART of the Dline MN) to where we could have Bailey and Houston on one side who is the better run defending OLB
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
I'll work on T-Jax and Gregg soon...
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Good lord man, when will you have time to analyze the draft?!
:)
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
free agency first!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I may never do a mock draft here
I’ve never really seen the point.
I want DeCastro in the first and a RT in the 2nd. Anything after that is gravy as far as I’m concerned.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I love you, man!
I mean … why yes, yes! I’m completely on board with that thinking and I heartily approve your comment
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I love you, man!
and we can get Bulldozer Bell from Oklahoma.
Instant Offense
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Mock Drafts are the devils work
I will never partake in them =P
Texas Chief - January 6, 2012
There's too many variables
Beyond the first couple of rounds, what’s the point? (besides fun speculation, of course)
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
beyond the first couple of PICKS.. whats the point?
Without knowing what teams will do in free agency.. whats the point?
One trade, or One wrong pick, or One need filled through free agency by ANY of the 32 teams… and your whole Mock draft is ka-put.
I just consider them a waste of energy. I LIKE to research and talk about the players.. and speculate which teams need which position groups… but I don’t waste any time reading every tom, dick, and Chris Mortenson’s mock drafts.
Texas Chief - January 6, 2012
It's all good MN
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
I could be wrong...
but isn’t the left end traditionally supposed to be more stout against the run? Hence TJ on that side.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
Probably, since RT is traditionally more of a run blocker
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
i think
This would be a bad ass idea down the road. Hali bailey on the edges would provide way more pass rush than the hali tj combo were rollin with
chief red foreman - January 6, 2012 via mobile
If we scrap the 3-4, that means putting Hali back in tthe 4-3...in which he was no better than an average rusher.
Texas Chief - January 5, 2012
ome more reason to retain Crennel and the current system
btw, you;ve got (new) mail
I so do NOT want to “start over” on this team
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Agreed
Also, Houston looks to be a guy who can be an excellent SOLB, DJ has become and All World WILB, T-Jax has become a good 3-4 DE…
I don’t see why we’d scrap the system when the pieces are finally starting to fall into place.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
It is
And if Bailey doesn’t improve to “good” against the run… then we’d be losing out by getting rid of Dorsey, a good run defender.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
DJ played free-lance coverage on passing downs
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Second point of contention
Both Dorsey and Bailey played about the same number of Pass Rushing plays. Not necessarily as 3-4 DE’s or 4-3 DT’s but both. Dorsey’s tackles made totally dwarfs Baileys production and besides 1-2 sacks have the same number of Hits and pressures. The only real difference is the amount of money spent per season on each.
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Bailey had 9 pressures to Dorsey's 2, so not exactly the same...
And while statistics are a big part of things, like I said, much of my analysis was based on watching them play. And Bailey does much better going after the QB than Dorsey. It’s not even close.
I believe the disparity in tackles is mostly due to Bailey playing almost exclusively in obvious passing situations and being asked to rush the passer.
Now, all things considered, I’m not saying Bailey > Dorsey as of right now (Dorsey’s still far superior against the run). What I AM saying is that based on what I see when i watch them…
A) Bailey is light years better at beating blockers when pass rushing
B) Bailey isn’t as bad at holding his ground against the run as Dorsey is at rushing the passer
C) Bailey spent all of last year improving, while Dorsey stayed the same as he was the year before and didn’t get better
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I can see that maybe Dorsey's hit his ceiling, whatever ... might be best to just continue the run/pass sub package (for now) and call it good?
unless and until something much gooder comes along … but I get the idea here
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I was very impressed with how fast Bailey seemed to improve.
If the old three-year rule holds true, it looks to me like Bailey might have jumped a half-year ahead on the development curve. That’s not a koolaid opinion, I was raggin on him early in the year.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Anthony Pleasant or maybe Kelly Gregg
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Or maybe Bailey.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
He was known to be a little disinterested in college
and did not play up to his potential.
I think someone taught him something this year.
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
always a good thing to learn to play harder and smarter
another good reason to continue with RAC perhaps :-)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I agree
I also think that being a complete freak, he never really had to work as hard as he had to.
He could rely on his unnatural speed for a guy his size and strength to win the day. In the pro’s, you gotta do more.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I don't know about that
Ive heard he was very coachable, the problem was the coaching was bad. Just look at Sam Shields, nobody out of Miami gets some good coaching and is starting corner for the Packers,
ChiefWarPaint - January 6, 2012 via mobile
Dorsey is serviceable, but has not lived up to his draft status or contract. With this post
it may make us think he should bulk up and play the nose position-oh wait, he can’t do double teams. I have been on the trade him bandwagon, if and only if we get value for him. As for Bailey, was truly pleased to see him become a factor in the last half of the season. Nicely done, but as a law student you need to use six dollar words more. HA!
dubld - January 5, 2012
neither has Berry, the guy hasn't made a single tackle all year ... ok, maybe one or two, but still ;-)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I didn't say I'm a GOOD law student
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
He's billing by the hour.
electriclight - January 5, 2012
you mean ANOTHER check to Thorman? on top of the Annual Fee?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I didn't finish the article
I started feeling funny
Chiefshero - January 5, 2012
I can't blame you
I felt funny writing it
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Dorsey's 39 Tackles and 32 defensive stops rank him with Justin Smith as a run defender
on 600+ snaps while Justin Smith played 900 snaps
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Right, because getting tackles make you good against the run.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
I sense sarcasm
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
You sense correctly.
That’s like saying a guy who gets lots of interceptions is a great cover guy.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
would it be better if that guy gave up TDs instead? would THAT make him great?
I sense sarcasmupamtn - January 5, 2012
Ups, doesn't it mean that he's simply
a potentially great 4-3 DT? Those inside guys don’t rush the passer very much… or at least aren’t expected to. If he’s top 5 at stopping the run, his trade value goes WAY up for a 4-3 team.
Ozarks - January 5, 2012
perhaps ... but if he's "that good" vs run, how vulnerable does that leave us without him?
just a random thought … I think stag hit on something important (below) too … namely, of all places where this team NEEDS an upgrade, this one is likely down the list a ways
upamtn - January 5, 2012
No, but tackles isn't a good indicator of an end being better than another.
And interceptions aren’t a good indicator or who is a better corner.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
the best indicator of who's the better corner is how many times the QB throws at him.
If the QB never throws at him, he’s probably the best corner on the field.
If the QB throws at him all the time… that’s why he has a lot of int’s.. because the offence doesn’t respect his coer ability as much.. and is willing to throw risky shots in his direction.
Texas Chief - January 5, 2012
meh
if your top CB covers their top WR it’s a fairly safe bet that guy is gonna get the majority of throws … esp if their #1 WR is far and away better than their #2 WR (and your other CB is as good, or nearly as good, as your top CB)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I disagree to a point
The absolute BEST way to determine who is the better corner is the percentage of passes he allows completed, and QB rating when he is thrown at.
But when using a more basic “eye test,” you’re absolutely right.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
Agreed, he's a very good run defender
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Very well written article
I look forward to reading the rest, keep them coming! :)
NlCK - January 5, 2012
Nice write up MN
As disappointing as it is to all of us that Dorsey has not been the Stud everyone thought he would be coming out of college, (we were a coin flip away from getting Matt Ryan as well), I am officially on the bandwagon that would put him on the trading block.
My question to Chiefs nation is: does it set us back five years missing on a DTOF? My answer is no. We have a replacement waiting in the wings. My next question is why would it be such a risk to draft a QBOF early in the first round? My answer is that it wouldn’t. Trade up to STL spot and grab RG3 or Luck if your lucky.
paulredfish - January 5, 2012 via mobile
I feel as though it comes off that I'm bashing Dorsey
But he is a pretty exceptional run defender.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
He is just not Ndominant like one would expect from a top 5 pick
Alas niether is TJax
paulredfish - January 5, 2012 via mobile
I haven't studied T-jax much yet
But in the limited snaps where I was able to watch him as well, he looked to be doing very well out there.
I don’t assign the same value to picks as most people. To me, all that matters is if the guy is a good player.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
oh great ... ANOTHER post like this!
oh wait, guess I should read it first, huh ;-)
Steve, I do hope MN duly thanked you for all your help (as in doing all the research and well, pretty much everything except the actual typing, which as we all know doesn’t amount to much, really, not when you consider all the etc etc etc ad nausum blah blah … ok, I go read now)
(huge grin)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
You're funny
(cries in corner)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Very well done and rec'd
I’m starting to look at Dorsey as a “trade up” chip. You could get a 3 for him, maybe even a 2, either of which would be fine. But what if you offer him and our 2 to Indy for their 2? Picking 2 in the 2nd is another low 1 for all intents. If Pioli could manage to trade down from 11 to say 22 or 23, and pick up the 22nd or 23 in the second, we’d be picking 22, 34, 54, 75. That’s four guys in the top 75 picks, with 2 of them having 1st round grades.
How about Konz at 22, Hightower or Burflict at 34, Ta’amu at 54, and Datko at 75?
That would give on oline of Albert, Hudson, Konz, Asamoah, and Datko, with Lilja and BRich as backups. Starting dline of Bailey/Gilberry, Ta’amu, and Jackson, with Gordon and Powe as the top backups, and a lb core of Hali, Hightower/Burflict, DJ, and Houston, with tons of depth in Siler, Belcher, Sheff, Stude, Miller, etc…
nmchief - January 5, 2012
It's tough not to view it that way
A lot depends on whether or not Bailey can keep improving at the rate I saw as the season progressed. If not, then Dorsey would be quite the loss.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Good Post MN.
I’d trade Dorsey as well, as long as the price is right. What’s the right price? I don’t know…I’m thinking a late 2nd or something comparable. Much less than that & I’d probably keep him here for the final year of his contract and give Baily another year to learn before being fully unleashed to terrorize the league. And I agree with your assessment of Baily, he looks like he could become a more athletic version of Richard Seymore.
jmcgoblue - January 5, 2012
Nobody will give up a 2nd for him
Here’s what I’d do: dangle Dorsey for a 2nd round pick and let him know it. When no team offers a 2nd (or even a 3rd) for him, I’d let him play out his last year on his ridiculously overpriced rookie contract. Then, I’d sign him to a more production-accurate contract after the season. Dorsey won’t sniff another contract as large as his current and once he is paid more in line with his production, all of the value arguments go away.
In addition, letting Dorsey stay next season lets Bailey move into the vaunted “third-year-leap” if Dorsey walks and makes Bailey the starter in 2013.
Chiefs4Life - January 5, 2012
Ask Bob Barker
Eastcoastransplant - January 5, 2012
Nice to be agreed with :)
It’s the improvement I saw that has me psyched about him.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
as long as it isn't a nervous breakdown, nobody needs that kind of pressure
damn, that microscope must be HUGE
ok, I’m reading, I’m reading!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Read faster!
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
MN wow, great write up
First off, wreck’d for the work and the work to come.
Second I agree on Dorsey, by now he needs to have/ should have/ why hasn’t he? developed into the player that we thought he’d be. If we can trade him for pics get it done. My question along that front though is… if we do trade him for pics/value, then we start again with another D-lineman who needs to develop yes? I
That said, I do see you imply Bailey can fill in for that role if he works on technique and size (eat eat eat damn you).
Thanks for the hard work – keep me coming! (Now if only you could use these for some of your Law School papers…)
Eastcoastransplant - January 5, 2012
I didn't know
you and MN were "friends with benefits".ChiefWildcat - January 5, 2012
LMFAO
damn I was wondering why my keyboard was always sticky
Eastcoastransplant - January 5, 2012
... and after MN told you not to!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
As far as the hard work goes
The credit for help with stats should all go to Steve_Chiefs. He’s the man for helping me out.
The game tape does take awhile to look at, but it’s very fun… except when re-watching some of those blowouts…
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I think Bailey, with an extra 15 pounds, could replace Dorsey eventually
Given the level of improvement I saw from him against the run as the season went along, I very much see it as a possibility.
While he would likely not be as good against the run (certainly not at first), he’d be so MUCH better against the pass that I see it as balancing out. Especially if we address NT.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
an extra 15 pounds? wow, Haley's not gonna like that ... oh wait
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Yeah, it may actually be an option now :)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I think when we look at Dorsey, Bailey, and guys like Gordon...
It’s about whether the guys behind you can do just as good of a job as you can do. If they answer is yes, that makes Dorsey expendable (i.e. tradebait). Take what you can get and draft more talent. This is the Patriot Way.
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
However we are talking about the Chiefs
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
You misspelled "Patriots West"
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
That doesn't exist anymore
The Donkies fired McD ;)
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
LOL.
At least we’re both on the same page with Ta’amu.
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
As in he does not fit our scheme as a NT?
Haha I havn’t changed the sig in forever, but after his regression this year.. I’m not high on him at all. Last year he did not show a lot of 2 gapping but there were times he was able to get low and keep leverage taking 2 guys.. this year he has been man handled by 1 man too many times. He doesn’t have the lower body strength to be a NT, not right away. As a DE/NT… that is another story
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
I like Glenn Dorsey's dog.
Thats pretty much all I have to say about him that doesn’t contain the word “suck”
craig in calgary - January 5, 2012
Bulldog, right?
I like bulldogs. But Ribz has one too. So Dorsey can be traded.
Falcon58 - January 5, 2012
Must every Chiefs player suck?
The Run defense lost us zero games this year if memory serves me. Now our Safeties cost us more than a few games
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Oh how we forget the Broncos game...
ChiefWarPaint - January 5, 2012 via mobile
The 1st one where Tebow beat us with his only worthwhile pass?
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
26th in run defense.
craig in calgary - January 5, 2012
Is there a reason your defending him so hard?
There’s clear evidence here that, while he’s a solid run defender, he can’t rush the passer or take on double teams. And he’s got a huge contract. What’s not to understand here?
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
The hate
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
The hate.
You sound like a Tebow fan. If you don’t think the guy is a great player you’re a “hater”. He clearly acknowledged both sides of the coin here saying that while Dorsey is good against the run, he struggles rushing the passer and against double teams. Just because the truth doesn’t involve someone gushing about the guy doesn’t make it “hate”.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
Besides beating GB, my resounding memory of that game is Ryan Grant running at Dorsey's side all half
…at about 6 YPC. For some reason they stopped running but I don’t see him as some great run stuffing beast. He did have a good game vs Denver, but holy hell, what an underwhelming 5th overall draft pick.
craig in calgary - January 5, 2012
That's the other thing
I haven’t reviewed the tape yet, but if memory serves me correctly it seemed as though teams had more success running at Dorsey and Hali than Houston and T-Jax.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
As it should be.
Running at our stronger pass rushing side (theoretically) and at THEIR strongest OT (theoretically) should be easier than running the other way.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
^ this
kc_radrh8r - January 5, 2012
I'm really sorry it came off as hate
I don’t hate Dorsey at all, and he’s a good run defender when not doubled.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
it wasn't your post it was the comments regarding your chosen topic
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Ahh I see
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
It's either crap or cake. Nothing in between.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
seems that way
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
How so?
Seriously, I don’t get this. I didn’t say he’s a bad player. Just bad at one aspect of the game.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Not talking about you.
You fence sitter :)
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Allen Bailey
First round body, 6th round coaching
Players with his athleticism for the 3-4DE spot come around once a year if that, and we have the perfect situation in place to utilize that talent to the fullest.
Glad he’s coming around, the potential is there.
ChiefWarPaint - January 5, 2012 via mobile
That's what people thought about Tank Tyler at first
Sometimes athletic freaks don’t work out the way you want them to.
Chiefs4Life - January 5, 2012
you mean Andrew Luck mght NOT be the ...
upamtn - January 5, 2012
He's also a mental freak.
But aren’t we all.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
I see what you did there :-)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Lots of body builders can't play football.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Tank was a freak weight lifter
Bailey’s a freak, period. But point taken.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Tank was strong
But by no means an athletic freak on par with Bailey.
ChiefWarPaint - January 5, 2012 via mobile
Great article man
I will have to dig up some old posts of mine…I was speculating that Bailey was drafted to be the RDE
PVChiefsfan - January 5, 2012
so, does arguing with yourself count as arguing with an idiot? it does for me, I can assure you ... and Texas Chief would no doubt readily agree
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Not only does it count
But it’s the best kind!
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Great post
I have not been high on Dorsey for a couple of years now. It would make sense he is better vs. the run being that he doesn’t draw many double teams. I agree, Bailey (and will add Gordon) would be much better in his position as a DE who can take on 2 blockers and get some penetration into the backfield. If you just look at the two options
1) Dorsey – 4th year player who is coming into a new contract in a year who has hit his ceiling which is average……vs.
2) A 2nd year player with 2 years left who was drafted in the 4th round (low money) who improved after 8 games and has the physical strength Dorsey will never have.
It’s a no brainer…from a business and football perspective. Trade Dorsey (who’s cap number is probably not huge) to a team like Indy or Minn who need a 43 DT for a draft pick. ATL is also probably another option as well as St Louis….with the way Indy plays D with smaller DT, it’s probably his best fit
Great job again, can’t wait to read the next one.
AZDiamond75 - January 5, 2012
I was going to bring up Gordon too.
I assume MN will probably get into this when he gets to Gordon, but what about a Bailey/Gordon rotation next year if they can get something decent for Dorsey? Gordon (from what my eyes told me anyway) was a little better against the run than Bailey.
So I guess my question would be, how do you like this scenario?
-Trade Dorsey assuming they can get a decent pick for him.
-Let Gilberry walk.
-Rotate Bailey/Gordon at RDE.
-Draft another 3/4 end somewhere in the middle rounds this year to keep the development curve moving.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
We still have too many needs
to trade away a dependable starter for a mid round pick. Dorsey’s next contract will be based on his production (not his draft position) and will take away the value argument. If we let Gilberry (and potentially Bair) walk, it still gives us roster space to draft and develop another DE this year. The only I’d trade Dorsey is for a 2nd (maybe a 3rd) rounder, and I doubt anybody will offer that.
Chiefs4Life - January 5, 2012
We don't know what Dorsey's demands will be.
His people might convince him to go to a team that plays a 43….and I wouldn’t blame them. So, if we can’t sign him, we won’t franchise him….better trade him this year even if it is a mid round pick….those rounds are great for value at G/C, S, LB, QB…which we will need.
AZDiamond75 - January 5, 2012
I'm guessing you're right about the scheme switch
He’ll likely want to go somwhere that he’ll produce more (and hence get paid more)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Kind of like how it worked out for Shaun Smith?
Though I’m sure someone will insist I be drawn and quartered (then shot, poisoned, burned at the stake and maybe stabbed a few times) for suggesting that though he was productive here, he’s a better fit in TEN’s 4-3 as a DT, and will have a more productive (and higher paying) career as a result.
TRSChief - January 6, 2012
Exactly
Although I didn’t see much about Smith this year… how was he?
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
He's been used mostly rotationally so far
Not world breaking, but holding his own. Probably seeing a good bit less play time at TN than he did last year with us – but then again, he was filling in for an injured TJax last year.
Kind of a wash on how much time he would have seen with us if he’d stayed this year.
TRSChief - January 6, 2012
Probably about the same as Gordon
Interestingly, both played better under RAC then they’ve been most other places.
It makes me wonder if RAC can make any ol’ DL an OK contributor…
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
Agreed
I’d rather get something in return instead of just allowing him to walk…which I think likely happens.
SCKSChief - January 5, 2012 via mobile
This year was interesting cuz we kept 8 DL on the roster
I’m assuming next year, it will be 6 or 7….TJ, Powe, Gordon, Bailey are a given. Gilberry might get other offers as a 43 DE, but he isn’t great against the run….so if the price is right we would resign him. Bair will be invited back to camp, but I see us maybe drafting a DL…either a NT or a DE cuz Gordon can play both.
AZDiamond75 - January 5, 2012
I'm not sure about Gordon yet
My eyes told me the same thing yours did. I saw Gordon as better than Bailey against the run and better than Dorsey rushing the passer and collapsing the pocket.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Talk about a huge run stuffing line
of Gordon, Powe, and TJ….Houston, DJ, and Hali would run free…I hope Powe works out. I found it interesting that he was still inactive when RAC took over.
AZDiamond75 - January 5, 2012
I'm still thinking that was a numbers game
We already had too many DL active every game, and didn’t need another NT guy.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Yeah, really no need for two active NT's in this day and age.
Heck, when Kalo was doing his front seven evaluations the team was in nickel over 50% of most of those games. No need for two.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
I really hope that was the reason
He looked very promising in preseason, and I was disappointed he didn’t see the field more.
How they handle NT’s in FA will be very, very telling for what RAC thinks Powe can do.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I hope that he got 0 PT this season doesn't tell us what they think of him.
it’s not like he’s a rookie QB that might get NFL version of PTSD or something.
like everyone, loved his hustle in pre-season.
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I really do think it was a numbers game
We had 7-8 active D-linemen every game as it is.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
yeah but i'm a worrier by nature, not cuz I hatecha
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
yeah but i'm a worrier by nature (not cuz I hatecha)
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I saw a training camp drill
where linemen went at each other one on one. Powe and Hudson drew each other once. Hudson played just a little past the whistle and slammed Powe on the ground. Powe popped up and sprinted right at Hudson’s back….then juked around him and ran back to the starting line just like he was supposed to. All the fans laughed because we were sure Powe was gonna jump Hudson. He looked around, confused about what everybody was laughing at. Haley said “Good hustle, Powe.”
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
i like it
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
haven't we heard this before? some Tommy Dorsey fella, I think it was, been a year or two, can't remember the guy's name, but you know who I mean
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Hey!
Ouch…
To be fair, the difference I see in Bailey is that he did all right both against the run and the pass as the year went on, while Dorsey never improved as a pass rusher.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
whew! ok, done ... time to get SERIOUS (me? yeah, I can do that on RARE occasion) ... here goes
do either of these guys get double-teamed more often than the other? or more often as a % of snaps played? why do I ask this, you ask? simply because the more times a guy is doubled, the more guys he eats up at the LoS and the more room for the LB’s to do THEIR work
it may be that someone needs to go back and review every snap of the season (Kalo, I’m looking at YOU! what? no, MN doesn’t have time for that, he has law school classes to slog thru) and determine if either Dorsey or Bailey is drawing more attention from the offenses than the other guy … granted the whole “situational” thing (run v pass) is pretty situational itself (do guys get doubled more on runs as a rule or on passes as a rule? if so, which, and are our guys here above or below the league average?)
just tossing out a random thought that might be the most absurd saber-metric imaginable, but hey … it’s what I do :-)
awesome post, MN … AND Steve!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I saw Dorsey face very few double teams, period
Bailey didn’t face many either though, but he did face a few more when rushing the passer as the year went along.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
awesome stuff, MN! thanks for bearing with me on this one :-)
as opposed to baring with me (cough)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
ba duh CHI
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
You can't really compare Dorsey and Bailey on stats this season.
They played in completely different situations. But also, and probably more importantly, Dorsey at this point pretty much is what he is. Bailey in the other hand has a lot of room to improve as a player. Not to mention, unlike baseball, you can’t compare football players based on (conventional) stats. PFF makes it easier with better stats, but to really evaluate players you need to do exactly what MN did, watch the tape.
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
This. It’s the only way to see things, even with stats as advanced as PFF (which are still awesome though)
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
good point here, MN ... similar to the Cassel v Orton "eye test"
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Dorsey doesn't bother me at all
I don’t care if he’s not getting to the QB.
He’s out there primarily on rushing downs, and doing a good/great job.
they bring in Bailey and Gilberry to get after the QB on passing downs.
there are FAR bigger issues on this team than Dorsey, so I think it’s dumb to write him off or spend time worrying about “upgrading” his position.
you MIGHT gain a bit by finding a better 3-4DE to replace Dorsey… MAYBE
but, you damn sure can gain a LOT by replacing the following players FIRST:
Sabby P
Barry Richardson
Thomas Jones
Anthony Becht
Tyler Palko
Ryan Lilja
Leonard Pope
stagdsp - January 5, 2012
gee, what a concept ... upgrade the BOTTOM players first!
/forehead slap
… I coulda had a V-8!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I think you stayed
in a Holiday Inn Express.
AZDiamond75 - January 5, 2012
He rushed that passer 244 times last year
That’s a lot.
But you make a good point. Which is why I have him a “needs to be upgraded” level of 5. It’d be nice to replace him, and it’d help our team, and maybe SHOULD happen… but there are other, much more important positions that need to be upgraded.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Just a rough guess but don't most offenses give up only a couple of sacks per game
the QB’s took beteen 20 and 40 sacks each this year so roughly 2 per game.
Seeking Sacks is not really the Chiefs game plan anyway, or Romeo would realign the Defense to make it so.
just My opinion
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I totally get that
And I think that our defense will benefit 100x more from getting Berry back than anything else.
Also, the emergence of Houston may make Dorsey’s pass rushing issues less important.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
To many Chiefs defenders in the backfield :)
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Haha sounds like some kind of penalty
Seriously though, I don’t hate having Dorsey. he’s a very good run defender. It just got old seeing a lack of pass rush out of our base defense.
The MAIN thing I came away with after watching the games isn’t that Dorsey’s bad, but that Bailey improved a ton and has loads of potential.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Sacks are one thing
Collapsing the pocket and generating pressure is an entirely different thing
And I think that’s part of the point in identifying Dorsey’s shortcomings. If he’s not getting double teamed, he should at least be collapsing the pocket on those 244 pass rush attempts. Sacks aren’t the end all be all for a 3-4 DE. But if they’re rushing the passer, they should at least be getting some push. Especially if they’re singled up. Make the QB not be able to step forward in the pocket, and that lets the edge rushing Hali and Houston have a much better shot at hitting the QB.
When there’s no pressure in front of the QB, he can dodge that edge rush all day. 244 attempts with only 2 hits and 2 pressures is pretty weak. It just becomes a question of if his run stopping in the base D is worth his complete lack of pressure, even when singled up.
Which is a fair point to be made by MN.
TRSChief - January 6, 2012
Thank you for saying it much more succinctly than I did
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
A HA! I KNEW I saw him get two sacks!
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
I know! I can't believe they called that a tackle!
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Actually, didn't Jackson tackle Tebow behind the line, too?
Or was that just a koolaid hallucination?
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Ha! Probably he did and they counted it as a run
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
I'm gonna have to completely, utterly, emphatically...
agree with you. Dorsey just isn’t getting the job done. Although, I can’t see Gilberry getting an extension, so Bailey essentially becomes a replacement for him initially. Then, if Dorsey continues to stay stagnant at where he is at currently, and Bailey continues to improve, then yes, he might replace Dorsey.
RememberDelaney37 - January 5, 2012 via mobile
I should note that although it wasn't the point of watching the snaps...
I can say that I didn’t see anything from Gilberry that impressed me, especially considering he’s been in the league a couple of years now.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Haven't studied the tape closely like you have.
But he certainly didn’t stand out AT ALL this season. It was disappointing, but he probably needed to go anyways. He just didn’t fit this defense. Yeah he was a nice player in four man front last season, but he’s taking a spot on the roster that should belong to a natural 3-4 end. The guys who play OLB in the 3-4 should be the ones playing the ends when the switch the a 4 man front (i.e. Hali and Houston, and to a lesser extent Sheffield).
polodude017 - January 5, 2012
I don't know if they played a 4-3 much.
Which sounds like the kind of four-man front you’re describing. They played nickel a lot, which takes a different kind of lineman.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
On obvious passing downs
They often shifted to a 2 down linemen scheme in which Bailey and Gilberry had their hands in the dirt and Hali/Houston we standing.
And yeah, Gilberry was unimpressive at best this year. Bailey was outplaying him by the end of the season.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Now that is weird. Gilberry, I mean.
Can’t figure out what happened to him. Unless he was trying to change his game to something he’s just not good at doing.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
isn't that what the preseason reports on him were?
becoming a “complete” player against pass/run? pin your ears back son!
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Awesome post
Thanks for taking the time to share your analysis!
HarryL - January 5, 2012
Thanks! And it was (mostly) fun...
I should note that all I am is a fan who watched a lot of snaps and was given stats by Steve_Chiefs because he’s awesome…. so it’s not like this is something to take as gospel. I’m wrong a lot… ask my wife!
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Nit picky clarification: Does this
mean that he wasn’t in on running plays very often, or that he wasn’t personally in run defense mode very often? Because it seemed to me that teams ran draws on our nickel and dime defenses plenty, especially early in the season. Are you throwing out the snaps where he was pass-rushing while the offense ran it?
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
It means both
He was only in on 68 running plays, and many of them were downs that are generally considered obvious passing downs.
what I mean is (based on what I saw), he seemed to be in there to rush the passer, and was playing accordingly.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
But when there's a run and he's in pass rush mode,
do you count that as one of his run defense downs or throw it out when you judge his run defense? Or was he ALWAYS in pass rush mode?
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
I didn't throw it out
In my opinion, even when your job is to rush the passer you need to have the awareness to recognize a run play and adjust accordingly.
So just because his job is to pass rush, he doesn’t get a free pass if he runs himself (or gets run) out of the play.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Speculation on Dorsey:
I think there’s a high chance that he did have a bum wheel throughout the season. Because it seemed like he would really turn it on when things got hairy (last two Denver drives), but he would shut it down at times as well. I don’t remember him playing like that last year.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
I can't rule that out
Because he looked SLOW on some of the snaps I watched, but not others.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Dorseys 2011 stats are very similar to his 2010 stats
I checked :)
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
That's what I'm saying...
He stopped improving.
Is where he’s at now as a player good enough for the long term? That’s the question. The answer… it depends.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
We have too many holes on the team as it is
and I think it was Mills that says you can’t have gold-plated players at every single position on a team. 3-4 DE is definitely one of those you can get by with solid talent.
Your overall grade of 5 indicates he is solid
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
A nagging injury could explain lack of apparent progression.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Also true, and I hope that's the case.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Exactly
It’s not worth using a pick to replace him. However, I’d like to see Bailey get a few snaps in our base defense in preseason next year to see how he does…
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
BAILEY SMAAASH!!!
EricBerryYoYouScary - January 5, 2012
One of the best hits of the year
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
Rodgers kinda curled up after that hit, but he had just enough pride to avoid the fetal position.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
On this play Rogers looked like a tree root that tripped Bailey up
…as he was chasing down an opossum 20 yards down field. Bailey practically ran right through the poor guy.
jmcgoblue - January 5, 2012
Bailey WILL make somebody puke some day.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
He also laid a big hit on Tebow
He just nails people when he gets to them.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
More data, who did Dorsey face this year
Rob Sims Detroit 11.1 – worst game
Joe Reitz Indy 0.0
Andy Levitre Buffalo 9.6
Chris Komoeatu Pittsburgh -9.4
Stefen Wisniewski Oakland -0.3
Steve Hutchison Minn 9.0 – worst pass rush game
TJ Lang GB 10.6
Logan Mankins NE 0.1
Ritchie Incognito Mia 2.0 – worst game
Matt Slauson NYJ -1.0
Zane Beadles Denver -13.2
Doug Legursky Pitt -1.3
Evan Dietrich-Smith GB -1.4
Joe Berger Minn 1.1
Mike Pollack Indy 2.8
Kris Dielman SD 5.5
Chris Williams Chi -0.4
Edwin Williams Chi 1.4
Tyronne Green SD – worst pass rush game
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
number is that players overall pass defense score
some tough Left Guards in the league
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
do the numbers represent the times they got beat in that game?
upamtn - January 5, 2012
no it is their accumulated scores from all games played
Ryan Lilja accumulated an overall 1.3 pass blocking grade
The top LG was Carl Nicks with a 16.6 grade
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
gotcha, ty!
so, six absolute studs on that list for sure … what’s the “average”
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Looky Nicks is gooooooooood!
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
Sadly Brian Waters was better at RG a 17.7 pass blocking
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Doesn't count
He sat on the couch for awhile! He cheated!
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
Plus we need a LG soon
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
I thought Wisniewski was going to be a STUD
Oakland screwed up another one
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I remember some love for him on AP
There is still time for him. McClain has already been infected however
BAMFSpecialOps - January 5, 2012
Entered he has the "Dark" Side for certain
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Your Yoda is showing.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
averages (someone can double check my math if they have PFF)
2011 Opponent LG Avg Pass Block = 1.2
2010 Opponent LG Avg Pass Block = -.67
fongKC - January 5, 2012
wouldn't be surprised ... tougher schedule SHOULD equate to tougher LG faceoffs
nice work!!!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
I just grabbed all the LG's he could have faced
I was suprised he had trouble with the Tyronne Green guy for SD
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
OLinemen should be terrified knowing that Bailey will be subject to a NFL strength and conditioning program over the offseason
Oh, and that he ain’t done growing.
ArrowSpread - January 5, 2012
imagine how alligators will feel!
upamtn - January 5, 2012
We got plenty of coons around KC.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
most of seem to be dead on the sides of various roads though
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Damn, no challenge in that.
Every storm drain in St. Joe has a coon family.
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Road Kill Cafe
carry out available at most locations
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Yum Venison
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
MN, I think you hit on a winner line to post upon
Kudos
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I absolutely could not have done nearly as in depth analysis without your help, Steve
Thank you for the help, it’s very appreciated.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
MN, Steve, Anyone else that had anything to do with this.....
Great Job. Finding the time to put into something like this I appreciate. For the people that have never done a post where they went and watched a bunch of film on the topic they are going to discuss, YOU HAVE NO IDEA what went into this post. Thank you! All of you.
As you will be eluding to this with other posts, I see there is a solution present already in our system to trade Dorsey and salvage something this year. Bailey doesn’t have to develop into Dorsey’s replacement next year. Bailey just has to continue to improve on both aspects of his game. Many games we played our 3/4 base defense under 50 percent of the game. For us to trade Dorsey and become better next season we would have to have Gordon or a signed FA to help split some time with Bailey. If we were able to get a 2nd or 3rd for Dorsey I feel that would help us be able to draft a higher NT. As much as everyone clamors for a NT upgrade for the L/B’ers a upgrade at NT would also help both D/E’s. This will be discussed more in the future but I really do see it as a viable option that we need to take advantage of if possible. Staying ahead of the curve will pay off huge for this team in the long term.
78Chief - January 5, 2012
both MN and Steve did a boatload of work on this full-of-awesome endeavor and MAJOR kudos to both
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Dammit Ups I didn't do anything
I am an enabler
MN did this all himself, I swear
See what a mess he created?
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Hey, I had no idea people would take, "Dorsey's bad rushing the passer, and Bailey could be a replacement if a few things go well"
as “Dorsey’s terrible and we need to trade him now!”
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
get off the fence and give him a 4
sure to clear things up!
soooo when does the Gregg and TJax post come out?
great post btw. where’s Kalo to weigh in on this madness?
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
He's probably staying away so as to not embarrass me with his superior knowledge of the game...
Gregg and Jackson… could be awhile. These take some time, and I’m busy enjoying my break!
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
enjoy it dude
we’ve got all the time in the world.
not to hijack the thread but two thoughts: jack del rio interview for HC??? and Landry Jones is staying in school so ya’ll can forget about RG3.
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
What impact would Jones have on RG3?
Our chances for RG3 dropped about as low as they can get when Barkley re-upped. But then again, that did make it pretty clear what we’d have to do if we want him…..
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
just one less QB
you’re right it probably doesn’t change things all that much. takes our chances of getting him from 2% to 1.5%
Shanghai_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
Some may be taking it that way....
That is not at all what I was saying though. Dorsey is a good player for the Chiefs. This upcoming year being his last contract year I think we have the ability to take a risk here by getting some value out of him if they are not going to keep him long term. Keeping him long term is the key to what the coaching staff thinks concerning his growth. If he is capped out and will continue being for the most part the way he was this year then I think we have more promise from Bailey and Gordon or another name to be added later. If this is the case then it makes since to me to go ahead and get value out of him while we can.
What do we get with giving Bailey more playing time and upgrading our NT position? Less production? I don’t know about that. With Berry coming back and having a offseason (as you stated) I feel we can be just as strong against the run while upgrading our ability to push the pocket and get more pressure on the opposing QB.
Where my thought process has been before this post and now after this post as well is if we have Tamba lining up the majority of the time on this side of the ball and Dorsey is not demanding double teams this is allowing more help to block against Tamba. Tamba is his best rushing around the edge. I felt like a saw him trying to do some inside moves this year and mix it up. If Dorsey was getting any push at all during that time that would have created one of two things. The first, they wouldn’t have been able to cheat over to seal off Tamba as well on the inside. Second though if they did continue to cheat over and help Tamba this would allow Dorsey to beat his man and get pressure on the QB. If Bailey is able to beat his man more times than not then this is going to cause the opposing O-Line to adjust and throw a double team on Bailey. If this happens I don’t care if Bailey gets stone walled or not. This is allowing Tamba and Derrick to do their thing. I think we can all agree if they are allowed to do their thing they do this better than almost anyone else in the league.
78Chief - January 6, 2012
All good points
A key development will be NT for the Chiefs. Gregg did what he could this year but wasn’t much better than Edwards was last year (although he was an upgrade).
If they get legit NT play next year, Dorsey becomes a little more expendable.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
hater! give him a 3 ... he's one of ours, yanno ;-)
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Crap or cake.....
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
in the exact same way that they take
Cassel and Orton were injured and Stanzi wasn’t nearly prepared enough to start games so mean:
Tyler Palko is the bestest QB ever, and Stanzi will never amount to a damn thing….
Texas Chief - January 5, 2012
Many games we played our 3/4 base defense was used under 50 percent of the game*
78Chief - January 5, 2012
I did write a post on that though :)
The Death of the 3-4 NT was the gyst of that.
Look at BJ Raji, a pure Nose
ranked 87th on PFF for DT/NT position
Steve_Chiefs - January 5, 2012
I will have to look that up....
I would enjoy that very much I think. With out reading it I would find it interesting how the other players did with his ranking being down that far. In other words with his ranking down did the others around him go up? I will try to find it.
78Chief - January 5, 2012
IF we traded Dorsey
Bailey would have to be better against the run than he was this year, or we’d have to retain Gordon or another more stout lineman.
Even then, on rushing downs we’d probably be worse off, because Dorsey does a good job against the run.
MNchiefsfan - January 5, 2012
If we traded Dorsey, somebody else would have to come in just for body count.
Bair might move up, but then we should get another developmental. OR…..we could carry four QBs :)
Brsrkr - January 5, 2012
Keep Dorsey
I see him getting better under Romeo, we had no camp cause of the strike, haley is not in his face, the Man is not a NT, put him back in his regular position, coach him up if anybody upgrade the line coaches both, replace players who don,t work in our system.
Anybody thing the Raiders got a d end when the got Seymour, are the bears with Peppers free agents not over the hill years to play by then the ones we have will learn how to play the positions
antony555 - January 5, 2012
I'm not sure what you mean about NT
Or “put him back at his regular position”
As far as I saw, pretty much every snap Dorsey took was at DE.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
That is the case
But who knows, maybe like Albert, Dorsey is a Guard
BAMFSpecialOps - January 6, 2012
Npw that just makes too much sense to ignore
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
It's just the slanted letters that make it sound good
BAMFSpecialOps - January 6, 2012
Wow were you drinking when you wrote this article. Could not disagree more.
Dorsey is our best defensive lineman. Now to the article credit that’s not saying much but when the opponent tried to run, e they did not run often with success against Dorsey side of the line. Granted he did not have many sacks against his 2010 performance I think who the chiefs had in the middle of the line had a lot to do with that.
NT Kelly Gregg was average at best and never played up to the level that Shaun Smith played and demanded attention that contributed to what you are saying was Dorsey’s disappointing year. Offenses were able to handle Kelly one on one and where able to slide to the left and double team either Dorsey or Hali. In fact once Gordon was able to play he was just as good as Kelly or TJ.
Now to the left side of the defensive line. T Jackson is an experiment that needs to end and moved to a back up role. Now he did make some plays but most of the time he was pushed out of the way and falling to the ground. Opponents ran to the right and middle with ease against the Chiefs.
NFL season ticket holder - January 5, 2012
wow, talk about drinking while posting
you do realize that TJax is the main reason Houston improved so much over the course of the year, and the play of TJax allowed Houston to turn into a dominant force rushing as well as against the run on the strong side …
oh wait, apparently you DON’T know that
well, now you do
upamtn - January 5, 2012
Shaun Smith played very few snaps at NT for the Chiefs
Edwards had the majority of the snaps there, and he was terrible.
Kelly Gregg is a grey beard in NFL age, and his play is not what it used to be.. but it was still a MAJOR upgrade to what Edwards was at NT last season. Gregg started to break down as the season went on, which is not surprising… but he wasn’t as bad as what we had a NT a year ago.
Smith played more DE than anything else. He was a nasty player that demanded some attention, I’ll agree. But he didn;t set the edge as well as TJax, and he was non-existant in batting down passes or invading throwing lanes. He did a decent job at taking on the double… but TJax is the better player at DE this season.
Texas Chief - January 5, 2012
Heh, wow.
TRSChief - January 6, 2012
There are multiple things wrong with what you just said
A) Tyson Jackson outplayed Dorsey all year. PFF stats back that up, as do the game films.
B) Smith played DE most of his snaps, not NT
C) Gregg was an upgrade over Edwards, our actual NT last year (although I agree he wasn’t great)
D) If you think Dorsey was getting a lot of double teams you haven’t watched the film. He was not often doubled, especially when rushing the passer. I just finished watching more than a hundred of his snaps. The man was not drawing many double teams.
E) While I haven’t spent as much time on this as the rest of these, I seem to recall T-Jax/Houston’s side of the line being better against the run…
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
Three things
1) Fantastic post. Definitely rec’d.
2) I cant find the words to express how happy I am to see someone put so much detail into describing how mediocre Dorsey really is. He’s not a building block by any means, nor will he be kept around as a role player at the salary he’s making.
And 3) Great write-up on Bailey. I agree with a lot of what you said, but what I would love most to see is him play LE in a 43 scheme. Despite being 25 or so pounds bigger, I see A LOT of Justin Tuck in Bailey.
kc_radrh8r - January 5, 2012
To be clear, Dorsey isn't exactly mediocre
He’s an excellent run stopper. However, overall… it’s tough to balance out him being so bad at rushing the passer.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
Good write up MN.
We slightly of disagree on Dorsey, but I see your points.
Enite - January 6, 2012
Thanks
But don’t you know we’re not allowed to disagree here on AP? :)
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
It's fine to disagree with anyone except me.
Didn’t your mother ever tell you NEVER to argue with an idiot?
Just pat me on the head and tell me I’m right, and then go on about your day.
It’ll be easier on everyone involved.
Texas Chief - January 6, 2012
That's not fun though
BAMFSpecialOps - January 6, 2012
Awesome stuff MN! Rec'd
Thanks for taking the time to put this together – somehow, the way you write it up & present it helps me undertand & see it better!
WorL4Chiefs - January 6, 2012
Thanks!
I try to present everything in the way I’d want to read it. Sometimes it makes for longer stuff, but it’s worth it to paint a clear picture.
MNchiefsfan - January 6, 2012
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