Arrowhead Pride

Doesn't the Patriot way involve one Head Coach with all the titles

And a bunch of 20-30 somethings acting as a gopher for each of Bill’s many hats?

Hey it must work

Where are they?

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

They are in New England. :-)

Ha touche

Where are they this weekend? Bam!

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

The question should really be...

Where are they if they don’t have Brady? Is BB all that? Or is it that with Brady you can’t look bad? I simply wonder what would have happened if Bill Never had Tom.

He'd go 11-5 with a QB who hadn't played since high school?

True. But that was one year on a team built for Brady.

How well did that same HS player do after he left the Pats?

Isn't that the point?

That he won without an all-time great QB? Not ultimate won, but won.

point taken

Here’s just where I’m going with this, and I really don’t know, hence I’m putting it out there. BB has had Brady the whole time (didn’t draft him to be the guy, but he got his diamond in the rough). And when you have a guy like that, an all world QB, then everything else falls in place. He’s had a ridiculous 124-35 record over 11 years. A QB like that just doesn’t come around, well ever.

So if BB had to go with Bledsoe and then some other QB for some of that time does he have nearly the success? I see what you are saying with Cassel, but could he do it continually? Could he have done it if the team had been riding on his shoulders from the get go?

Well, the other example you can look at is Peyton-less Indy.

exactly.

However I’d say Dungy is a much better coach than Caldwell. So it’s not a perfect example.

Yeah, the samples sizes aren't very big in the NFL.

Still, one team loses their superstar and goes 11-5, the other team loses their superstar and goes first overall.

True

What that says is that caldwell got handed a team and him and Irsay did nothing to change it’s aging player problem – similar to what happened here when Herm was hired. Green retires and our Oline is old and all of a sudden we’re shot to hell. Very similar to Indy.

BB never got in that situation. So one thing he’s been very good at is keeping his team young, or young enough, keeping new guys coming in and learning from the vets and then letting vets go (Vrabel) – or getting them specifically for a one year filler (Junior Seau, Brian Waters).

And Indy's now-fired GM built a whole team around one player.

Hoodie doesn’t just keep his team young, he keeps it flexible. Damn, wish I could do the same about my joints.

That is the genius of Belichick

He adjusts to what his team is. This version of the Patriots are very, very different than any other team they have taken to the SB. I mean two stud TE’s, really? Who does that shit.

He does the exact opposite of Haley. He takes the team he has and adjusts his systems to the personel. Haley tried to adjust the team to his systems. (4-3 to 3-4 when we didn’t have the personel, change the offense completely despite an OLine not built for zone blocking or WR’s for his system.)

Belichick is a jerk all the time ... players adjust to him or be gone

That is true as well. He is an asshole, at least from what we see.

They adjust mentally but he adjusts his systems for the players talents.

It just kills Ups that a perceived meanie can succeed in life :)

Yeah. It seems that as I age

The little injuries add up and no longer heal like they used to. I no longer bounce.

Oh wait, this is a football, Chiefs related thread… What were we talking about again?

I don't know, they say memory is the second thing to go.

damn, now I forgot what I was going to say ...

There's an argument for that but also an argument for it the opposite way

How many QB’s have we seen come out of the draft who had all the tools imaginable, who seemed like can’t miss prospects and failed. I’m not talking about the idiots like Ryan Leaf either.

Take David Carr. Dude had a rocket arm, came with a great college pedigree but came into a bad situation in Houston, got pounded into the ground and was never the same. Rick Mirer, arguably not the smartest guy in the world but few remember that he had a better first year than Drew Bledsoe.

Yes, having a great QB can do wonders and I think that gives teams a head start over everyone else. You put Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers on any team and they have an advantage over every other team. Even with those players, if they are not in the right situation though they can’t succeed.

Best example I can think of is would Joe Montana have been Joe Montana had he not been drafted by Walsh and put in the West Coast Offense, imagine if he had been drafted by the Chargers and put in an Air Coryell offense stressing downfield passing. He wouldn’t be what we all know of. Archie Manning is another example, one of the best QB’s on a terrible team. Put him on a better team and we would all think of him very differently.

Great QB’s put you in a position better than others but great QB’s can’t be great without something around them. I know the Colts fell apart this year without Manning but that has been coming for a bit, Caldwell is a terrible HC, and Manning was also basically their OC.

same as Todd Haley then

When did Haley do that?

He did go 10-6 with a QB with two full years of NFL starting experience. But also went 4-12 and 5-8.

So Pioli should become the head coach?

The "Patriot way" only works if.....

…you have Belichick and Brady. Without those two, it’s nothing more than a myth.

F250 - February 1, 2012 reply

Not really true

there is an actual process behind the scenes to identify talent which is, the ‘Patriot Way’.

jmcgoblue - February 1, 2012 reply

Who's all these coaches?

You wanted muir to stay? I couldn’t be happier this dudes gone. Couldn’t call plays for shit.

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

Muir was a good Oline coach but not a good coordinator....

It would have been nice having him stay on the line,

but I am happy about the new perspective this team will get.

They were not good at carrying out the offensive coaches blocking schemes, especially in 2011. Time to move forward. Wouldn’t Will Shields be a great assistant?

Was he considered not a good fit for OL coach

Anymore? Since we’re more zb and he was more a power blocking coach, or am I way off?

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

He did a great job in 2010 installing Weis/Haley

in 2009 it was shaky, but “goff” the lineman were not great either.

Story sounded like he just wants to retire.

I’ve been denying myself a lot of things over the years but I’m at a point in my life where I want to do some other things."

He wants to nap on his couch instead of a booth

Ha! Personally, I think I'd take on a boat building project, or maybe a world tour type of thing.

And then probably nap on the couch instead.

WR coach, Asst OL coach, ST coord (filled)…and if we don’t give Zorn the OC he’s gone too.

I wanted muir to stay as OL coach, look at 2010 when that was his sole job…Lead the league in rushing…Charles is a part of that, but he’s gotta have the blocking to make some of those runs.

The problem is, if they had planned all along to hire Zorn as the OC, then why on earth have they waited so long???

KCTigerChief - February 1, 2012 reply

Apparently they haven't planned that all along.

Since they still haven’t done it, and Zorn is apparently thinking of resigning.

I didn’t actually finish what I was going to say lol…

If they hire Zorn now, in order to keep him (remember we DID block the bears from interviewing him), then it just looks like a giant waste of time.

If we DON’T hire Zorn, and I’m sure he’s made his case known to management, then we’ll lose him, and denying the interview to the Bears was pointless…

I’m just frustrated with how our front office has been handling things…Makes zero sense…and it’s driving most fans who’ve been fans for decades absolutely nuts.

KCTigerChief - February 1, 2012 reply

That's true.

But even if they hire Zorn now, that doesn’tmean that was their plan all along. Maybe they’ve interviewed other guys (and may still from one or both SB teams), and then decided Zorn was the best guy for the job.

If you remember, RAC actually told them to go out and interview other candidates, because he wanted them to be sure he was the right guy for the job, rather than just a hire of convenience.

haley called the plays not muir as much

They doubled their win total in '09.

I’m just sayin’.

And had nowhere near the talent we have now

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

Blame pioli

Even though Crennel makes coaching decisions? Makes no sensr

ChiefWarPaint - February 1, 2012 reply

Exactly

Supposedly the reason for Firing Haley when they did was so they could get a jump on hiring/interviewing people for jobs before other teams that were gonna make coaching changes. Just another non truth.

dablueguy - February 1, 2012 reply

All along I felt that Zorn would be our OC

Bring in some quality assistant coachs and I think we would be good to go….all we need now is a RT and a QB

Well at least Oakland hired Knapp

That worked wonders for them a few years ago.

I can't really think...

Of a coordinator out there that I would want or that I am excited about. Zorn was put in a bad situation in Washington when they couldn’t find a head coach. I think he is hungry to prove himself as an OC after his stint in Washington.

Zorn wouldn't excite me.

But then, neither would just about anyone else.

I hear the Steelers are looking at hiring this guy who's supposed to be a good OC... oh wait...

RA_ChiefsFan - February 1, 2012 reply

He was supposed to be good three years ago, yeah.

Now the bloom is off of that rose.

If they fix that O-line in Pitt

He will look really good there. Pitt situation reminds me a lot of Arizona, questionable line, hall of fame QB, excellent receivers. Receivers were a bit better in Arizona but the running game is better in Pitt.

Streetcleaner - February 1, 2012 reply

agreed...

A hungry coach with something to prove is better then a green OC IMO tho

indeed

there’s a respectable list of guys with whom I’d be ‘satisfied’…but no dynamite sure thing OCs out there.

cheapham - February 1, 2012 via Android app reply

Zorn had his fingers in the horrible offense in 2011,

do we really want him being the guy transferring that kind of ugly continuity moving forward.

He was mostly just relaying plays to the QB's headset.

I’m not going to hold the playcalling against him.

Nor I

And the playcalling DID improve over the course of the last few games (although RZ miscues kept that from being reflected on the scoreboard).

While running someone elses offense

Zorn is a WCO guy and would overhaul the whole mess.

I realize that

WCO could work with the pieces we have in place

Agreed.

YAC receivers and lack of a strong armed QB (for now anyway).

this is a great point.

may be what the team is thinking as well.

cheapham - February 1, 2012 via Android app reply

And played for eons in an offense really similar to the E-P.

And coached several times (Detroit, Baltimore, KC) in Coryell or E-P offenses.

So he spent five, six years with Holmgren. Some of that WC shit is pretty cool—deep crossing patterns?

I’d go for a blended scheme at this point—who cares about what name it is? Whatever puts points on the board.

We can make up a name for it

ExRoyalsFan - February 1, 2012 reply

The KC BBQ Offense :+)

LocoLoboChico - February 1, 2012 reply

I bet money

Zorn was barely involved. Never know. Full offseason, coach hungry to prove e can do it. Could be good.

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

If he was barely involved, that is sad

Who would sit by and watch this offense fall apart without getting involved?

He could only do what he was allowed to do.

shrug

The way Cassel and Palko played

I think Zorn may have been a Pioli hire and Haley let him do as little as possible

Haley seemed to love him.

But who knows what goes on behind closed doors. (Without hearing the cell phone tapes.)

Haley probably loved him because he kept his mouth shut.

Is that a reason to promote a guy or not promote him?

It is a touchy situation.

I didn’t want Zorn to be the OC before, if this report is true and he is giving ultimatums…however vague, I really don’t think that would be the way to go.

Unless of course the Chiefs already gave him the job and he said that as an after thought.

Either way, I am not a fan of OC Zorn or the Chiefs utilizing a more WC offensive style.

When somebody interviews for a promotion, it's pretty common for them to move on if they don't get the job.

In the executive circles, anyway. Means their progression has stopped here, so might as well go somewhere else.

What's wrong with the WCO?

Requires smart route-running, big receivers, and runs after the catch. Crossing patterns, zone-man combo blocking schemes…

I don’t see an issue here. Fill me in, CBO.

requires smart QB ... we have Cassel ... next?

Ups, buddy, good to hear from you.

The question wasn’t “Why shouldn’t we run the WCO?” The questions was, what’s (inherently) wrong with the WCO?

And honestly, Cassel’s very intelligent. He’s just inept as far as accuracy, footwork, and making his reads. To me, that’s not intellect…it’s skill…and he isn’t.

If you’d said….

WCO = not inherently a bad offense
WCO requires a more accurate passer.

…that’d make more sense, regarding the question I ASKED :)

/pokes the bear, to see if he’s awake

how you is, sal? good to seeya ...

hey, I was going off your comment, you are correct, he’s got a brain (come at me, bro!) but the skills …

did you see the thing in Arrowheadlines yesterday, Gannon’s bit about a QB test

all QB;’s should take that

Agreed.

And with the complexity of passing games in 2012 compared to the mid-90’s?? Testing like that should be REQUIRED.

I din't say there was anything wrong with the WCO

I loved the 1980’s 49ers when I lived in Nebraska growing up before I moved to Kansas City. It is a good system.

However, I just don’t see Jim Zorn as the guy to usher it in to Kansas City. Tom Clements, Joe Philbin? Maybe a little bit better…who knows?

I would rather see the team stick with the EP, it is a proven system and both of the Super Bowl squads utilize it. If the team does change offensive systems, I would rahter move back to the Air Coryell, as there are still good coaches to be had to teach the system and I think Jamaal Charles would excel in that running style… along with Dexter McCluster (picture those sweep plays and pitch outs.)

Any NFL offense can work if it is executed properly. The most improtant thing is getting a solid play caller and I don’t think that is Jim Zorn in Kansas City. This team needs continuity on defense, on offense, IMO it needs to go away from last year.

This team needs good coaching, hope that helps.

LOL, good coaching would TOTALLY help. We're on the same page there, CBO.

I guess my take on things….

-Zorn doesn’t necessarily mean WCO. The guy played in Chuck Knox’ pro-style sets in Seattle, coached in a Coryell-based scheme with Cameron in Baltimore and coached in Bobby Ross’ multiple set/pro-style offense in Detroit (note: this is a similar system to the Erhardt, as any play can be called from any formation and there is a focus on running the ball and intermediate passes). There’s nothing saying he’ll junk our system for one that no one on this team knows.

-Zorn might be the shittiest playcaller since Paul Hackett hooked up with Mike Solari in an Arrowhead bathroom….OR….

-Zorn might be the next Norv Turner, a guy who knows how to call a bland offense based on the “flow” of a game.

When it comes to Zorno we just don’t KNOW. To me, that’s the rub…assuming Zorn’s a no-coaching SOB because Snyder wouldn’t let him hire his staff or call his preferred offense to me, just isn’t fair. But we can’t assume he’s the best ever, either—we have no justification.

Me? I think he’s a “meh” hire but he might be more….My money is on an outside candidate and with JZ remaining as QB/Passing Game coordinator, or ass’t HC. And I’m OK with those things, personally.

What makes you think he didn't want to?

The qb coach doesn’t have that kind of power. Especially when dealing with am OC and an arrogant hc

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

Flacco just didn't want him to leave

If i remember right he made a very big stink over it, why cause because Zorn was making a great improvement in his play,must have did some good the ravens barely lose the game

I'd be alright with zorn as OC

not my first choice, but i think the guy deserves a shot as an OC. he’ll be a thousand times more creative than Muir, that’s for sure.

cheapham - February 1, 2012 via Android app reply

Not sure how I feel about Zorn as OC..

I’d rather have Hue Jackson but it could be worse than Zorn I suppose. Just wish we would hurry up and sign someone already.

jcrunninwild - February 1, 2012 reply

Agreed.

I’d rather have Hue Jackson but it could be worse than Zorn I suppose.

I'll third that

fourthed

for good measure.

cheapham - February 1, 2012 via Android app reply

Now if only someone would give me a fifth.

This news would sound a lot better then.

fifthed :)

O.C.ChiefsFan - February 1, 2012 reply

fif

Where's Fitty when you need him?

Get a four pack of this and you'll be a happy camper

There you go

Winner!

Sith

ChiefRocka - February 1, 2012 reply

Too small, what is it?

severn58 - February 1, 2012 reply

That's what she said.

cheapham - February 1, 2012 reply

thats the look of a chief fan who hasn't seen a playoff win in 18 years

Nope, too happy

And when you say worse I assume you mean the three headed monstrosity of Haley/Muir/Zorn

I don't think that Jim Zorn will be able to ultimatum his way into the position

of Kansas City Chiefs offensive coordinator. That is just not a good way to go about getting a job.

Jim Zorn is an average QB coach that doesn’t need to be put into a job that is above his pay grade, especially by using resignation threats as a means to an end.

It’s time to move on.

How about bringing back the Air Coryell?

OC Al Saunders
QB Hue Jackson
OL Asst Will Shields

Who knows where this goes, but that is a good opportunity.

Zorn did help Hassleback and Flacco as a QB coach

I agree, Jim Zorn is a decent QB coach

Do we want our offensive ceiling to be Flacco and Hasslebeck’s glory days with Zorn?

did Zorn help Palko?

Moot point, no one could help Palko.

Well then...

Did he help Cassel?

Nick Britt - February 1, 2012 reply

No one can help Cassel except Charles.

manofnothi - February 1, 2012 reply

Case in point

Cassell was already jacked up before, Zorn got here

no

only the shake weight can help Palko

That was a lost cause

No one could have helped him, maybe Kurt Warner could give him the hookup at the store he worked at, and in a couple of years he could work his way up to assistant manager

How about

OC: Zorn
QB/OC-Asst: Jackson

That way, if Zorn messes up, he is fired and Jackson comes right in at OC

Mitul V. Patel - February 1, 2012 reply

and daboll as wr coach

cheapham - February 1, 2012 via Android app reply

So if Muir retires can he spill the beans if he so chooses?

Or does the “shut up and don’t say anything” clause only get thrown out on resigning?

Muir will use the

“I’m old so I forgot I had a confidentiality agreement” card

I would have kept him in a heartbeat for OLine

I would have skipped a couple heartbeats (then cried a lot) if they kept him as OC.

Apparently they tried that.

And he declined.

Yeah, too bad he's hanging it up. Now we need to find a good O line coach.

Really good, since we are apparently going to draft about 27 O linemen this year.

how about teerlinck i believe manning old oline coach

He was a Haley puppet, should have stayed oline coach

OC was not what he was cut out to be, maybe when they played with leather helmets, on their knogens, he should had retired before he came to the Cheifs, what good was he under Haley.
Thats why Haley hired him cause he still wanted the play calling job, that was not Muir it was haley wanting someone to keep cool and his mouth shut.
The first time i heard him have a conversation with the media was after Haley got kicked to the curve!

Two oc's in two year and looking for a third, defense one reason that their so much better

than the offense, unless they can get someone very good in here, avg of 10 to 14 pts a game, and our defense might as well get conditioned cause they will be on the field all year and looking at 3 and outs, and ints, and fumbles

"OC or I quit?"

Sheesh, is this really the way things happen at 1 Arrowhead Drive these days. How does this stuff get out to the press? It clearly shouldn’t. Time to face it Chiefs’ fans, the clowns are in charge of the circus.

Chief Farmer - February 1, 2012 reply

He never said that

It just says he could resign.

KCinIL - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

Paranoid Chief Fan is Paranoid.

/shrugs

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, Jimmy!

Bill.

Jimmy and Bill

Billy and Jim?

cheapham - February 1, 2012 via Android app reply

Jess and Jim's?

ravenhawk - February 1, 2012 reply

Personally, I think Zorn is the way to go.

we can now take a step forward rather than a step back. He has experience.

ryanishere - February 1, 2012 reply

seems to be the only option. i dont like the sound of a resigning coach

SDChief - February 1, 2012 reply

Zorn is doing the right thing

He isn’t making enough money in KC given his resume to stick around as a QB coach. He can hook on with a team with a much better situation at QB. A new OC may want to bring in his own guy.

This does look like a mess. Maybe it isn’t, but it is strange the OC has been so strung out.

Cassel probably should keep the same offensive to have the best year. A new offense makes no sense if we are sticking with Cassel.

ChiefConcern - February 1, 2012 reply

Because the old one has been so successful.

A new offense makes no sense if we are sticking with Cassel.

hey, you can count on that offense for one good hail mary td :)

SDChief - February 1, 2012 reply

By the way

perfect timing for Will Shields to come in and coach the o-line.

Asst. only.

I’d hate for him to be THE guy when he has almost no experience doing it.

Can we do Shields and Roaf

as co-assistant o-line coaches to make a head o-line coach?

Shields train lineman that are entering the draft

so that would give him some experience

That's why I said almost no experience

instead of no experience whatsoever.

Plus he has down those interns with the Jets awesome line

and worked with Bill Callahan (vomit), so there is that to.

I think he is ready for an Asst OL tag.

That's what I'm saying.

I just don’t want him as THE OL coach. That guy has a lot more responsibilities than just teaching technique.

agreed...

I’m not sure many people want him to be the guy right away.

Lets steal Grunny from Weis.

He's pretty big to stuff under your shirt

chiefsandcigars - February 1, 2012 reply

Depends on the shirt...

some of us may have bigger shirts than others

maybe weigs retires and they make him oline coach

muir may not even be done. look at the 2000 rams. fresh off a super bowl win....

martz takes over

all of a sudden, mike white, frank gansz, and others fled….quickly….away from martz. heck, gansz even retired, then took a job in jacksonville

SDChief - February 1, 2012 reply

Either retire, or your fired.

jcox31mc - February 1, 2012 reply

I'm not retiring, I am not retiring...

Oh wait… what? Oh, I guess I am retiring.

Supersport - February 1, 2012 reply

I can see where Zorn is coming from

I imagine he was interviewed awhile ago for the position and they’ve spent so much time looking past him this offseason for a different candidate, then the team goes and blocks a potential job in Chicago. I think I’d feel the same way.

Of course

the position in Chicago is the same one he has now.

When you fire your head coach with three games to go, you should have a big

advantage with regards to hiring new coaches, obviously that advantage no longer exists, and hasn’t for quite a while.

jcox31mc - February 1, 2012 reply

Thank goodness our local media is so accurate.

Wait…

The more I consider it, the more I am just fine with Zorn being made OC.

He was helping calling plays and whatnot last season. Continuity can never hurt.

Except when it's continuity from sucking.

This is true.

But I don’t think Zorn will continue with Haley’s gameplan.

I don't either.

Which is why I wouldn’t hate it. He’s also already familiar with the QBs.

Plus, he could probably even double as QB if needed.

He can hit a trash can better than anybody else on the roster.

I hate it

I really really wanted some outside help for our offense, so far we haven’t made any significant changes to any position other than ST. HC hired from whithen, DC same, although I like Crennel’s defense, I wish he would have let Gibbs or Thomas have the title, OC should be new blood not a holdover from last years debacle.

Hoochdawg - February 1, 2012 reply

I do have a conspiracy theory

A new OC is headed to KC and they know who he’s bringing with him. Scott does early house cleaning and lets go of receivers coach and assistant o-line coach. Muir had the chance to stay but chose not to. “I don’t want to work for that guy, I’ll lose my normal Noon to 3 Sunday naps.”

News Flash:

It’s not had to hire someone as your OC/DC in the NFL. Zorn and Muir aren’t a loss. If they were going to be a loss… Pioli would hire them for a better position.

Hunt and Pioli is turning this organization into the Raiders

The Chiefs will never be the Raiders.

I know.

Raiders got rings

ArrowDread - February 1, 2012 reply

Truth. Ouch.

Falcon58 - February 1, 2012 reply

Chiefs got one

ChiefWarPaint - February 1, 2012 reply

The stuff that's been going on lately is very Raider like

Sure, there has been some shady stuff presented, especially by the spurned local KC media,

but unless the Chiefs give Sabby Piscitelly 100 Million this offseason.

They are still light years from the Raiders organization. Come on.

You mean we can't look forward to more Super Bowls?

What?

wow ... just wow

the soap opera continues

With until it becomes Peyton's Place.

Whats scary with that is it could drag on for months

A la Favray.

Could?

Will.

I'm a Chiefs fan

Holding hope for something that’s likely not going to happen just comes naturally.

Difference is, Peyton is not a drama queen.

So it won’t be near as annoying.

no, he's a master media manipulator

CUT THAT MEAT!!!

Genius

His entire family is.

manofnothi - February 1, 2012 reply

Here's a question, if Zorn resigns, could he coach elsewhere?

I would think that he’d be blocked from coaching in the NFL for breach of contract. College might be an option.

If he resigns, then Chiefs aren't paying him, should be free to make a living working somewhere else

But there are contracts involved here

I would think KC would own his rights

I think he'd have to sit out a year

(Assuming he signed a two year contract.)

Good thing the Chiefs fired Haley during the season to get a head start in selecting the new coaching staff

Luckily there isn’t an expansion team entering the league in 2013… even they’d have coaches in line by now

yeah the chiefs still got to work out the right 53 formula yet

i here the chiefs are looking at the job page of the star for coaches

so, we refuse to allow Zorn to perhaps get a better job ... yet also refuse to go ahead and promote him here

what great guys!

They didn't deny him from getting a better job, they denied him from getting the same job with a competitor

Which is well within their rights. Just as it’s within Zorn’s right to resign.

He couldve potentially been the OC in Chicago

Even if he was interviewing for a QB coach job. Also QB coach with Cutler > QB coach with Cassel.

Exactly. That's why Zorn is giving the ultimatium is my guess.

The gentelman's agreement in the NFL seems to be

that teams allow their personnel to interview for jobs that would be a promotion, but not for the same position with another team. Chicago said the interview was for QB coach. If they wanted him for OC that’s on them for screwing the pooch.

Then... Chicago should have said it was for the OC position, not QB coach.

I thought Mike Tice was made the OC

He could potentially be the OC in Kansas City too.

getting away from Cassel and Pioli sounds like a better job to me....

We don't even know if Zorn wanted the interview.

We refused to allow Zorn to interview for the "same" job.

Pioli couldn't tell if this guy wanted it, since he was waiting for a reaction....and the Ravens just went ahead and announced the hire :)

NIIIIIICE!

hahahahahaha

urod69 - February 1, 2012 reply

How is going from QB coach to QB coach a better job?

Let’s not aid in the spreading of disinformation…

Better situation for Zorn?

How so?

To know that would be to know his personal opinion of the Bears organization and QB, something we’re not exactly privvy to.

Even if it was possible to go from one coaching position to another

I would rather coach cutler than cassell if i was zorn

that was on me, I thought they had wanted him for something that was a promotion

They did, he would be designing the pass plays and working with Cutler.

Only difference between him and an OC with Chicago is that Meathead Tice will be calling plays full-time. Zorn (and now, Alex Van Pelt it sounds like) would’ve drawn up the plays he could have used.

These things happen. Gotta be careful though

You’ve seen how easy it is for a rumor to spread like wildfire here…

Now, if you’re INTENTIONALLY spreading rumors that’s fine :)

speaking of rumors ... I heard something about Vrabel retiring ... just a rumor, though

No way

Dude’s got at least a solid half decade left in him…

look at the QB and tell me that Chicago isn't a better job

nah, all that matters legally and rulewise is job title

The argument was that the job in Chicago couldve been a better option

Cutler > Cassel is a better option.

true as far as NFL rules go, but if I"m Zorn I resign from Chiefs and hire on in Chicago if KC doesn't want me as OC

Get away from the Gong show and a QB coach looks a lot better when he’s working with a good QB. I’d be looking to get away from Pioli’s performance to this point myself. Former NE coaches that left have a hard time getting re-hired in the league unless it’s with their own cirlce of friends.

He Can't Do That While Under Contract To KC

Not unless KC releases him from his contract (which is unlikely) or the Bears pay the Chiefs compensation for him. Same deal with Vermeil and Herm…we had to pay compensation for Vermeil even though he was retired, because he was still under contract. Resigning doesn’t void it.

Thanks UC, I was looking for this

easy solution to that problem as demonstrated by Haley, go tell Babb that his phone was tapped

Chiefs don’t want to pay remainder of contract due to breach

Yup

Of course we see how well that’s worked out for Haley. Getting dumped from your contract is only a good idea if you’ve got another job lined up.

Because Zorn Might See A Better Chance For Advancement There

If a guy is taking a lateral move like that, it’s usually one of two things…1) he’s got a coach he really, really wants to work with, or 2) he’s not getting promoted where he’s at so he’s looking for a job where he’s got upward mobility.

yep, he sees a better path to get where he wants to go by wanting to make a lateral move to another team

That's all conjecture.

As far as the reports go, Zorn didn’t ask permission to talk to the Bears, the Bears asked permission to talk to him.

Everything Here Is Conjecture

You think Emery and Zorn didn’t talk while Emery was with the Chiefs? You don’t think Emery knows Zorn wants to be an OC and if KC has no intention of promoting him? These things don’t happen in a vacuum.

Of course Zorn wants to be an OC, but he wasn't interviewing for the position

And it’s just as easy to say that Emery saw value in Zorn and sold him to Lovie as a good component to help Tice manage Mr. Pouty head.

This thread has ran so far off the track it’s crazy

SHENANIGANS!!!!!

wait ... Pioli allowed Emery to talk to Zorn?!?!?!?!?!?

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

That's fair. Conjecture, but fair

Conjecture =

99% of what’s posted on AP. That’s what sports blogs are for. :)

That's just speculation on your part

synonyms are fun!

And you're absolutely right

Except Chicago asked for the interview.

Not Zorn. Who is to say he wanted the job, and who is to say they’d have ultimately hired him?

My take

I’m beginning to think that perhaps Zorn to OC has been the plan all along. Tarkus made a good point the other day by saying that if Zorn was OC in waiting, they would’ve hired him already. But the contract situation with Muir prevented that from happening.

Until Muir has officially submitted his resignation to 1 Arrowhead Dr, he was the OC. If they fired him and moved Zorn to OC, they’d have to pay Muir the balance of his contract (and based on the coffee incident, we know Pioli is serious about conserving money). So they waited and waited and maybe even offered some sort of severence to get Muir out. I expect the Zorn hire to come quickly after the ink on the resignation is official.

what gets me is that a week ago Muir was quoted as "I'm staying til they say otherwise"

did they say otherwise? did the TELL HIM to say otherwise? and if Zorn is to be new OC, why wait?

Easy button

did they say otherwise?

Yep, after a span of 8 days it only makes sense unless he forgot what he said 8 days ago.

What was my point? -I forgot.

and if Zorn is to be new OC, why wait?

2 Words: Peyton Manning
Or get Stanzi to choose one.

Either way, I’m thinking Pioli had an excuse in his first year since he came late to the dance. But what’s the excuse for waiting now? None, his options are slim.

I cannot and do not wish to think of Manning as having anything to do with Kansas City

I approve this message

Dream killer :)

ups u might remember this guy played for the chiefs olineman Tom condon, the same tom condon who is peyton manning agent.

as they say food for thought

Hopefully the Chiefs will draft Payton’s boy in about 21 years.

manofnothi - February 1, 2012 reply

Either way, I’m thinking Pioli had an excuse in his first year since he came late to the dance. But what’s the excuse for waiting now? None, his options are slim.

If he were to hire an OC before Muir resigned, he would be effectively firing Muir and therefore owe Muir the remainder of his contracted salary. He is trying to save money by either waiting for Muir to resign, or trying to get a resignation out of Muir using a severance package that is more favorable to the Chiefs than his current owed contract.

Then again, Pioli could have gone to an arbitrator for Muire like he did for Haley if he was so concerned about cash

If Saving Cash On A Coordinator Was His Rationale

Then we’re really in trouble. Muir makes nickels and dimes in comparison to players.

Exactly friggin right

They waited because they had to, hence my second paragraph above

If they announce Zorn as the OC, they’re actively firing Muir, which puts them on the hook for the balance of his contract. If they wait until he resigns on more favorable monetary terms to the Chiefs, then they can promote Zorn to OC without having to owe Muir as much money.

Makes sense. But what about the talk of Muir moving back to O line coach?

JayhawksNChiefs - February 1, 2012 reply

It's never a bad thing.

To have a former NFL QB as your OC.

Where's Blackledge when you need a good OC candidate?

Giving interviews in PA about the passing of Joe Pa

he was on the radio the other day out here. I vomited a little in my mouth.

No kidding.

Getting sick of Blackledge whining about how poor Joe Pa was treated.

My Take

Zorn didn’t have a particularly strong interview for interview for OC and isn’t really under consideration, was hoping the Chiefs would let him walk for the Bears QB coach job once Emery became GM there, and now that they haven’t promoted him or let him go his only option is to force the Chiefs’ hand by threatening to resign (which means he’d have to sit out until his contract is done, unless someone pays compensation for him).

Whenever it gets to the point where an employee is saying “promote me or I quit” that’s a sign of problems ahead.

And I Say I Suspect They Don't Want To Promote Him

Because if so, I think they would have done it by now. Basically, seems like he’s a fallback option in case nothing else works out. They didn’t want Muir, they aren’t really stoked about him, but nobody else seems to be a candidate for the job.

In addition, if they can't get anyone else as OC and go with Zorn, by not retaining Muir they can spin it that it's an upgrade over last year's playcalling

Even though it’s probably the same thing, different name

See my post above...

Who’s fault is this? Pioli had an excuse his first year since he got hired late, but what are his excuses now in waiting. The applicant list of qualified (emphasis on qualified) personnel is getting smaller.

I Agree

His handling of filling out Crennel’s staff has left me very concerned. I think he’s demonstrating a lack of ability.

You mean Crennel's handling of filling out Crennel's staff.

True

I don’t know what the division is, but if the problem is with Crennel it’s just as bad. Possibly worse, actually, since that would mean that Pioli has just hired a coach who can’t convince the guys he wants to work for him.

Or a coach who's not very good about staffing.

Or candidates that aren't thrilled about working for our GM.

Or Both

You mean candidates that aren't thrilled about working for our head coach.

No, I meant exactly what I said.

Pioli going to arbitration over Haley’s contract is bad ju-ju when other candidates in the NFL see it.

The only time that’s happened before was with the Raiders, and if some of those are the type of coaches we’ll end up with, it’s going to be a long ride.

The head coach works for the owner and/or the GM,

the assistants all work for the head coach.

...and S@it rolls down hill.

Just because they report to the HC doesn’t mean that the GM doesn’t have a lot of input.

Kind of like a VP of a company reporting to the president…doesn’t mean the President can’t have a lot of directions for the subordinates under the VP.

Yup

There’s two basic problems with what happened with not paying Haley’s contract.

1) Haley made some very outlandish accusations about the Chiefs’ operating environment. Allegations of wiretapping. Coaches don’t usually accuse their bosses of that…because coaches don’t want to burn bridges for their next job. That Haley would go on the record means he really believed it happened. Combine that with Babb’s story where other former employees believe it happened, and coaches start thinking it might be true.

2) The Chiefs’ response to that story, apparently, was to retaliate against Haley by withholding his contract. A relatively small amount of money in NFL terms. The smart move would have been to give a response along the lines of “What the fuck ever…the dude is a headcase” and shrug it off. Retaliation makes it seem that Haley said something that made them very uncomfortable and possibly true. Especially when you combine that with Pioli’s love of secrecy and the Patriot’s history while Pioli was there (Cameragate).

Basically, it doesn’t even matter anymore if the Chiefs were/are wiretapping or not…because of how they’ve handled the Haley situation, it appears that there may be something to the wiretapping story. And coaches don’t want to work in an environment like that if they have other options.

Now this I can buy, well said

It Makes Sense

And I have no idea if the Chiefs were wiretapping or not. I think Haley was a jackass and a headcase. But that also doesn’t automatically mean he was wrong or lying. And it wasn’t just him making those insinuations to Babb…other employees did so before the Haley story became public. That’s quite a bit of smoke.

Haley never said a work AFTER the firing

word you mean? very true

Nope

But he talked to a reporter about his suspicions beforehand. And that’s what got him into trouble. I suspect that’s the “cause” the Chiefs are now claiming for not paying his contract.

talking to a reporter is grounds for withholding pay?

If the report is true, and might have some truth who knows

then that would be the case maybe, if it were for something else.

I personally believe all of this was a pissing contest between Haley and Pioli over the QB that got drafted in the 5th round, and the fact that Haley was looking for a replacement for matt cassel.

I Think There's A Lot More To It Than Stanzi

And I think Pioli had plenty of reason to fire Haley. His inability to get along with any OC he had was grounds as far as I’m concerned.

well if that were the case

the cause would have no grounds since he was bond by no contract to keep his mouth quiet. That being said, he never spoke on the record about it either, it was at beast hear say.

Clarifying

He told Kent Babb about his suspicions that his phone was tapped while he was still the Chiefs’ head coach. The story about it came out after Haley got fired. So I suspect the Chiefs are claiming that Haley making accusations against the business while he was an employee of the business is grounds for not paying his contract.

He made no such public accusations

Babb reported on an off the record part of a conversation in which Haley was trying to find a location for them to meet, and injected his own speculation into it.

That was my interpretation.

Didn’t actually quote Haley about that, did he?

I believe

he said something like, they met, then change rooms a couple of times and that Haley looked worried and said he wasn’t sure if the rooms (conference room was bug) Later second hand source reported to the reporter that haley was concerned his phone was bugged. At which time a good part of AP put on there tin foil hats.

Okay...Let's Look At It This Way

When the story came out, did you tell yourself “There’s absolutely no way that Scott Pioli would ever attempt something like that with his employees.”?

Keeping in mind that this guy is part of the franchise that got draft picks voided for Spygate.

No, I didn't tell myself that.

I also didn’t tell myself “Wow, Pioli absolutely wire-taps his coaches.”

Neither Did I

Like I said, I have no idea if he did or didn’t wiretap employees. But I consider it a possibility.

And I do believe that some people in the NFL believe it.

not only draft picks but also a $500,000 fine for Bellicheck I believe

That dollar amount isn’t chump change. Then the NFL destroyed all the evidnce it gathered so no one else would know what actually NE did.

Does It Matter? Seriously?

That’s what people believed happened. People believed Haley claimed his phone was tapped to a reporter. Haley certainly hasn’t come out and shot down Babb’s story. He hasn’t claimed he was misquoted. And the Chiefs withheld his salary because they claim they had cause.

If I’m a good coach looking for a job in the NFL, I want nothing to do with a place like that.

yet they are all rumors, Haley has told no reporter that his salary was held for cause..

You're Not Getting It

It doesn’t matter what actually happened in the wiretapping story if the coaches we want to hire believe that story to be true.

The NFL is a business that thrives on secrecy and rumors. If a story gets put out by a newspaper reporter making outlandish claims and the team isn’t suing for defamation, people will start to believe that the story has legs. And so will coaches looking for a job.

You are talking about appearances. I hate that appearances sometimes take precedence over reality.

I had a platoon sergeant who was all about appearances. Stylish mofo, spent every free minute in the gym, used scalp wax. Really smart guy, too. Backstabber extraordinaire. Everybody hated him. I and all his other squad leaders complained openly to the CO about him, repeatedly. CO was on the verge of retirement and didn’t do anything about him. He drove a couple of good soldiers out of the army before he finally PCS’d to Korea, a duty station where they don’t put up with crap. A couple months after he was gone, we heard that he’d been transferred to a chair in the personnel office.

Anyway, I really hate assigning any importance at all to appearances.

Yes, I'm Talking About Appearances

Yes, it’s unfortunate, but perception is reality. The Chiefs have done nothing to change the perception that this is the kind of behavior they’re capable of.

I don't know that I'd want a football coach, much less a leader,

who would turn down a job based on what he reads in an op-ed piece.

Hate To Break It To You

But everyone in the NFL lies at some point.

And the fact that the Chiefs haven’t sued the KC Star for running it leads me to believe that there might be something to it.

How would they sue for that story? It was just a collection of ex-employees' opinions.

Babb was very careful not to inject personal speculation into it. Actually, I think the story was very well-written on the surface, I just question the motivation behind it.

exactly

Defamation

Happens all the time to tabloids that run speculative pieces with no information or misleading information.

It wasn't speculative on the paper's part, though.

That’s why I say it was well-written. It was a collection of, basically, bitching by ex-employees. Oh, and a few employees who didn’t have anything bad to say, but it’s tough to remember those parts for some reason.

I Agree, It Was Well-Written

For me it was a “Hmmm” piece. I don’t really care one way or the other if the Chiefs are wiretapping their offices. Hell, I think they have a RIGHT to tap their own offices and e-mail system and company-issued phones. I’m fine with it…as long as they get results.

But they haven’t really gotten results. Things aren’t that great. And based on the trouble they appear to be having filling out Crennel’s staff…

Well, if YOU don't care about them tapping their own phones, and I don't care about them tapping their own phones,

then why would a good NFL coach care about them tapping their own phones?

Anyhow, I agree, I don’t care how they run their office, I just want to watch a winning team.

Because They Would Have To Work There

And you and I wouldn’t.

And Just To Be Clear

While I don’t care if a company taps its own phones, there’s no way in hell I’d want to work for a place that does that kind of crap if I have any other options.

ok then "assume" that Babb had no personal motivation, it was just a story to him

now what?

HA! WHY would I assume that?!

all aboard!

Everyone wants to be on the agenda train.

In the best circumstance, Babb's "personal motivation" would have been to write an interesting/profitable story.

And controversy sells.

Babb Did Interviews Afterwards

He said he’d gotten a lot of flack about his article from colleagues. He also said he’d been told directly by other colleagues that the Chiefs had been leaning heavily on the other media outlets in town by threatening to move their sponsorship elsewhere if they ran with the story.

Like I said…there was a lot of smoke.

Maybe they were worried about, you know, appearances.

Even for a guy who poo-poos on appearances, I can recognize that it was just bad damned timing on Babb’s part.

That was the first thing that mad me upset about Babb's story...

He could of ran it in March after the staff hires, if it even needed to be run at all.

I wish he would have thought about the ramifications of his actions, but I can see how reporters wouldn’t do that. It was still a dick move on his part and benefited no one in the long wrong. Not even Babb.

And I Have Similar Stories From My Time In The Army

You know the deal…it’s as often the appearance as the reality that matters. That’s why you have to look good in addition to being good.

But the moral of my little story

is that the pretty, backstabbing bastard got his sooner rather than later.

They All Do Eventually

One of the things I realized after several years in that kept me sane was the realization that every major backstabber I knew in the Army got caught eventually. When you’re the kind of guy who thinks the rules don’t apply to you, you’re probably not going to be smart enough to be able to get around the institutions in place to enforce those rules for long. If you’re a backstabber, eventually people will figure it out.

People always get caught eventually.

Yeah, Cash did an awesome job with that song.

God's Gonna Cut You Down

Cash rules.

I side with Zorn

He has put in his time as QB in every city he has coached.

He was one of our playcallers last season…well he atleast got to repeat to Haley what Muir said to him? Who knows!

Anyways, If KC will not let him jump ship when he wants they better make it worth his while.

He has been in the business as a respectable coach too long to get pissed on.

Matt_Grbac - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

So What?

Putting in time doesn’t matter. All that matter is whether he can produce. If the Chiefs don’t want to hire him as OC, clearly they don’t think he’ll produce. If they promote him despite those reservations, that’s bad.

And

KC doesn’t have to make it worth his while if they keep him. He’s got no options except quit at that point unless someone is willing to pay the Chiefs for him. Which is unlikely.

I do agree that if this is the case, it’s bush league on the part of the Chiefs.

That's what I'm saying

I know KC has the power in this case.

I just think Zorn deserves to be allowed to interview with another team if we don’t have plans with him. It’s a respect thing.

Obviously if he doesn’t wanna be here, do u want him on the staff? I don’t.

Matt_Grbac - February 1, 2012 via mobile reply

Where was the report that he didn't want to be here?

The Bears asked permission to talk, KC said no. End of story.

This story is growing different new herpes like bumps faster than Snookie.

If Emery Didn't Think Zorn Was At Least Somewhat Unhappy

He wouldn’t have asked for permission to speak to Zorn.

At Least Not For A Lateral Move

Not true at all

Teams ask permission to talk to guys all the time. And it has nothing to do with how they feel about their current job and everything to do with a team seeing a guy they consider a quality coach and trying to hire him.

Believe What You Want

But if Zorn doesn’t get the OC job and quits, don’t say you weren’t warned.

I don't actually believe anything here other than what is a direct quote

Half of the items on this thread have to do with the Wrapper Report as opposed to anything that has actually transpired here.

Direct Quote From Pioli To Joel Was That Haley Wasn't Getting Fired

And we found out before the end of the year that was a lie.

You really believe only what GMs and coaches say is going on?

Well I believe Irsay ;)

Only what he puts on twitter when he's obviously 4 bowls deep into the bong

Nope, but there were indications that Pioli was fibbing

LOTS of smoke there.

There is no smoke here. There is one report that says Zorn would like to be promoted to OC here. Not in Chicago. And that he would be unhappy if he wasn’t. Understandable.

The idea that Zorn was pining for Chicago is an invention of this particular discussion. It’s certianly not from any source outside AP including NFL beat men, GM’s, Zorn or even the ghost of Al Davis.

Speculative

According to the standards you’ve set. :)

So he wanted to give him a job because he though he might be unhappy?

Or because he wanted him on staff because he’s a good coach?

I Think They Want Him As A QB Coach

And I think Zorn doesn’t want a job where that’s his ceiling.

Agreed

That’s why what’s going on right now in regards to staff is really starting to concern me.

So far they just had their o-line coach quit, they’ve apparently got an unhappy QB coach who would rather quit if he’s not promoted or allowed to take another job, and they aren’t bringing in a lot of talent. We’re well on the way to the Maurice Carthon era as OC…and that would be VERY bad.

Jason Drue Keith - February 1, 2012 reply

Trends?

*Internet chatter said Brad Childress wouldn’t consider the OC position here because of the QB!
*Mike Sherman said that one of the reasons he looked away was because of our QB!
*Jeff Fisher withdrew his name in favor of a team with a “better QB!”
*Todd Haley’s dad’s comments about our QB!

Things that make you go Hmmmmm?!!

they all love our QB?

Jason Drue Keith - February 1, 2012 reply

VERY much so!

I used the caps because I know you like them SO much!

Got links/sources for those first three?

Because that’s the first I’ve heard any of that….

cheapham - February 1, 2012 reply

Teicher never stated Zorn would resign.

“Quarterbacks coach Jim Zorn has interviewed for the vacant coordinator’s position.”

That’s all that is said about Zorn

Pacific Chief - February 1, 2012 reply

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too.

From all the comments on here, I just assumed I missed an earlier story somehwere.

adamteicher Adam Teicher
Zorn has told people he may resign if not promoted to offensive coordinator

He may be fired if not promoted to offensive coordinator

Like, if the new OC wants a different QB coach, you know?

cheapham - February 1, 2012 reply

Yes What we need is another Crazy Qirkey coach to run the offense.

Chief Fan from DFW - February 1, 2012 reply

Zorn & Bowe Need To Shake Down Clark Hunt For Huge Raises

Pioli is such an idiot. Jim Zorn & WR Dwayne Bowe have all of the leverage to demand huge raises to sign new contracts as OC & WR. I just hope Crennel & Zorn get along because Pioli will probably draft a nose tackle instead of an offensive tackle so he can blame Zorn for the Chief’s crappy offense in 2012

Unleash THE ZARN!

Oh wait… Zorn? Hmmmm…. on second thought.

Ochophosphate - February 1, 2012 reply

u really think money was the hold back between muir and zorn for the oc job

cmon on, that sounds real bad, when other teams here that shit. we got to get this guy to resign, before we name our new oc

Obvious this is Zorns retaliation for not getting to interview with the bears

Wouldnt mind him at OC, he was involved in playcalling that led us to 2-1 to end the season so well see.

ChiefWarPaint - February 1, 2012 reply

Zorn knows QBs

And he couldn’t do shit with what he had last year.
And I’m sure Haley made Palko play, not Zorn.
Our problem is at QB, so give the reigns to someone that knows QBs right now, before the draft board is set.

GO CHIEFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Beefcakess - February 1, 2012 reply

Heh, if Haley was getting into it with Pioli over Cassel not being good enough,

I wonder what Zorn would do.