Arrowhead Pride

You really think he'll want Flowers money?

Even if he goes to a team that needs a #1 corner he won’t be a better #1 than Flowers. Other teams may overpay for his services though.

Sam D - February 10, 2012 reply

This is what I think

Unless he’s greedy and unreasonable, he won’t ask for anything more than Flowers. I think he knows that the backfield he’s in is strong and helps him at times.

Carr seems like a level-headed guy. I base solely on the fact that he’s never out there taunting players, never in the media complaining, and we basically hear nothing about him. If he is level-headed, I don’t think he asks for Flowers money.

7chiefs7 - February 10, 2012 reply

Just have to understand that what his agent may be asking for might not mesh with Carr's character

I agree with your assessment of what he wants, and I really think he should be an easy sign. I feel safe saying that Pioli probably lowballed him on the previous offer(s), since he has had cheap contracts from Charles, DJ, and Hali. The number will come up, hopefully Carr’s agent isn’t too greedy though.

Sam D - February 10, 2012 reply

Ya that's a bit of a curveball

But also remember that Carr’s agent doesn’t have full autonomy. He has to do what his principal (Carr) tells him.

7chiefs7 - February 10, 2012 reply

How is it greedy or unreasonable If he asks for more money? He’d be stupid not to ask for the most money possible. He was listed as the 2nd best available free agent on ESPN. Get your money, if the chiefs don’t want to pony up then we have to replace him, but that would go against everything they’ve been saying about keeping our players we develop.

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

NEWS!!

severn58 - February 10, 2012 reply

I think this is just the front office doing their due diligence

I’d rather have a front office exploring every possibility than doing nothing and hoping for the best.

Nothing to see here….move along.

K_Karsten - February 10, 2012 reply

i agree

I sure as shit hope so

Not interested in downgrading a position when we have the option to stabilize.

Carr over Routt every day of the week.

Not looking and moving along (as directed) and hoping this is just fluff.

Ochophosphate - February 10, 2012 reply

What if Carr is asking for "Routt money" (or what was "Routt money")

And Routt is asking for 6 mil a year?

I guess it could be worse

If that’s the case is it more valuable to franchise Carr and at least have him next year while we try to work on a deal… or is it better to lock up Routt for a few years?

For some reason I thought Routt was older than 28 – like, cresting 30, but I see that I was wrong.

I don’t know – I’m just not as impressed with him as I am with Carr. Part of it is probably also inherent Raider hate that makes me bristle. Of course I’ve also said that I’d take Michael Bush if he were an option… so I’m apparently fickle and full of shit.

At least today is Friday – that’s a positive.

Ochophosphate - February 10, 2012 reply

Always a positive when it's friday

And no, Routt is no Carr. It just becomes a matter of “how much is too much?”

Hopefully that’s not what’s happening.

MNchiefsfan - February 11, 2012 reply

Yep

We have a potential need for a #2 corner, which Stanford Routt has excelled as. While we’d all rather have Carr, that may not ultimately be up to the Chiefs….and this shows they’re doing the work necessary to make sure they’re not caught without a backup plan.

It should be ultimately up to the Chiefs. They don't have any excuses to let him go.

They have the money. I don’t think he hates KC, his coaches or his teammates.

I think Pioli is using it as leverage against Carr.

Word is out that they are looking at other corners, so if Carr really wants to stay a Chief he better make a deal. How often do we hear that the Chiefs are showing interest in a FA? My guess is Pioli said it’s OK if you want to share that we called. How else was Carr going to know about it.

Helmets - February 10, 2012 reply

It also could work against Pioli

Just because we have the money

Doesn’t mean we should sign a stupid deal.

We should keep him if it’s at all feasible. IMO, that means if he’s asking for 12 million a year or some other such crazy number, you gotta let the guy walk.

I hope SO MUCH that this isn’t the case. I have no problem with them paying Carr identical money to Flowers…

Right on the money

Over paying for anything is just stupid… Being smart and spending smart is what makes teams good for years. I am not sure why people feel just because we have the extra money, we should use all of it just to keep someone.

I would overpay for certain things if the money is available

And no decent alternatives existed. But that’s not the case here.

We have underpaid the past 3 years, as long as were in the same ballpark as the other teams we should be fine. We already got a hometown discount while he was playing out his rookie contract(thank you herm for being an excellent DB scout turning a 5th rounder into a stud)

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

I think

8-9 Million a year for Carr would be fair, IMO.

O.C.ChiefsFan - February 10, 2012 reply

totally agree, MN

I have no problem with them paying Carr identical money to Flowers…

Rec

Well, maybe not NOTHING

Could be a move to see what kind of contract he’s looking for… could be to make Carr sweat a little.

a little leverage for the Carr negotiations?

My thought exactly

Carr is better than Routt in my opinion, but not night and day better.

Exactly

Routt’s a good corner. Carr’s certainly better, but not so much so that we need to get crazy trying to sign him.

I really hope that the only thing holding them up is minor quibbling over details, not Pioli playing “hardball” or Carr asking for stupid money.

Hes definitely better

More scheme-diverse and even less of a bonehead

Agreed

I think there are two reasons for the call: (1) to see if he would be interested if a deal can’t get done with Carr and (2) to see what it would take to sign Routt so they can use it negotiations with Carr (if the number is low enough).

If we can’t get Carr, I’m imagine Routt would be interested in coming here so he can pick-off Palmer in a real game instead of in practice.

7chiefs7 - February 10, 2012 reply

The worst thing about Routt being released is that he could potentially set the market with redonka numbers

Plus teams that make a run at him and miss are going to be loading up the dump trucks with cash for the guys that are left.

If Carr walks it's on Pioli, could have looked him up after the lockout instead of a one year RFA tender

No excuse for Pioli to say he was blindsided or the market floor was set too high by a player that was released before the new league year started or tags could be applied

Or Carr balked at all the deals Pioli offered?

Routt’s ridiculous salary last year was probably the exact kind of thing that kept Carr from signing any sort of deal earlier.

Or Carr was tired of not being considered a #1 CB because of Flowers (doubtful but possible)

No way to tell what went on behind the scene. I’ll go ape$&#! when/if he actually gets out of town. Till then it’s all conjecture.

There are enough experts here

that we know exactly what went on behind the scenes.

I don't think it matters what may or may not have went on behind the scenes

Bottom line is that neither Carr nor Bowe have deals in place yet, and there is plenty of salary cap room available

Most teams haven't locked up their FAs yet

The Chiefs aren’t an exception. This is just how these things work.

true

So they should just be handed blank checks?

Yep.

As long as it’s structured well.

It’s not my money. I’d be happy if we spent to the limit every year. Just be flexible enough to dump people without awful cap hits.

Structured well for whom?

So if Carr wants $15M a year, they should give it to him?

Structured well for the team.

$$ doesn’t concern me. How a contract affects the cap does.

Obviously everything has to be within reason, but if Carr is the last player to sign and we have 15 million a year left, why not?

What if he doesn't agree

to a contract structured well for the team?

Tag!!!

Your it

Cause thats not how you do it

you dont just say" fuck it, I have this much left, give it to that guy"… Its not only this year they look at.. Its also down the road. Spending money too freely causes problems in the years to come.

It does? Example please

The one team I can think of that spent over the salary cap won the Super Bowl

and singing god is awesome

cant win without that

Gospel music?

Tebow says so

And he loves you

This I know.

Where's the example of teams being crippled by the cap?

I know the Raiders were in mess going into this year but they had a pretty good year and were in the running for the AFC West

Just so we are clear

i am not against spending. I am against spending stupid. My argument is that we should not be cheap with Carr but also dont pay him crazy money because we want him and have it.

So for your example, I dont need one. I never said they are crippled. I am saying spending doesnt equal winning..

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/10/steelers-have-other-candidates-for-creatingcap-room/

Pittsburgh Steelers

They have to clear 25mil of cap space just to not be over. They already cleared 12 by restructuring Woodley and Timmon’s contracts, but they still have work to do.

CapsLockKey - February 10, 2012 reply

I am not saying spendin all your salary cap is bad if you do it wisely

over paying for a guy is bad… Just because you dish out all your money doesnt equal Super Bowl… I say pay Carr and Bowe, but if they want money that just isnt realistic, you dont do it just because you have it

Plus

What you pay one player sets the market for other players. You don’t give every penny you have to a player, just so you can say you spent all your cap. That would just be stupid.

Also

its not just 2012 we have to look at.. People become free agents next year too and need to be paid… And what if some min. salary guy has a break out year? We are going to have to pay him more money… Wasting money just to say you spent it can hurt us

Would it be?

Over simplified scenario…..

Say player hald way through a contract has an out of his mind year. Team is also $10M under the cap. Say you rework the players deal to move outyear money into this year to A)reward the player with a big bonus B) us up existiing cap space, it is use it or lose it and C) reduce the players cap number in out years. GMs can be creative in how they use every penny of the cap, you can reward players, build loyalty and put yourself in a better cap position going forward.

Saving money this year

doesn’t mean you get to spend it next year.

I agree. I also understand that this is an extreme position and isn’t totally realistic, but IMO the team can do better than it has.

Actualy...doesn't it?

Can’t you carry cap space from one year to the next under the new CBA?

That makes sense

We need to maintain our ability to be at least a little flexible and make moves. Which structuring can do to a point

This, spend every penny, every year.

my ol lady does that

Doesnt work out too goid for me

Every god damn year! There’s no reason we couldn’t have been in the playoffs this year if we had shaun smith all season, or we didn’t let Shawn rogers walk for the extra million that the saints gave, or had someone to back up cassel. Any one of those moves might have put us in, but we got everyone drinking this pioli koolaid like its being discontinued or something.

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

Did you seriously

just say that Shaun Smith was the missing piece to our team this year

badassz1987 - February 10, 2012 reply

He may have helped our red zone offense.

There is plenty of cap room available, but would you pay Carr #1 money?

Cause that’s what Routt got last year, and he’s clearly a #2. In theory, Carr deserves it. In practice, that’s a LOT of money to tie up in your corners.

That's why he got cut

he was overpaid

Man I'm gonna miss Al

He played like #2 too.

also puts you in the running

for the best secondary in the league w/ a healthy berry and lewis locking down the safety positions

RomeosBBC - February 10, 2012 reply

Well he should look at Routt's situation as an lesson

Just because a player has excelled as the #2 corner doesn’t mean they deserve #1 money or will be able to play at the level of a #1 corner. Routt looked like a stud opposite Nnamdi Asomugha, but was exposed pretty quickly once that support was gone.

but with flowers signing an extension

they’ll continue that tandem and wont run into that position. its not the same lesson to be learned.

RomeosBBC - February 10, 2012 reply

True, the Routt lesson is

Don’t release your #1 CB so you can pay your #2 his money.

They didnt release Nnamdi

True, to a point

But they didn’t tag him and they tied up the money to re-sign or tag him in Routt.

I'm almost positive that the same clause in his contract that made him a free agent kept the Raiders from tagging him.

Once it became apparent he wanted to go elsewhere, there wasn’t much they could do.

That being said, they still gave Routt way too much money.

MtHammer - February 10, 2012 reply

Everything I can find about it says the Raiders..

Failed to meet some of the incentives in his contract which allowed Nnamdi to void it. Not a release, but piss poor decision nonetheless

Pretty sure Nnamdi opted out of his contract

He didn’t want to stay in Oakland

If he wants to be the #1 CB and make #1 CB money

He’s going to another team…plain and simple. The Chiefs would be foolish to pay him that much. He’ll likely flounder in that role with another team, and end up just like Routt.

If the Chiefs are kicking the tires I guess the Bowe and Carr deals aren't going to be announced any time soon

idk

they kicked the tires on a couple of other “big name” CBs last year

Leigh Bodden, right?

did he end up retiring? I never heard his name after that

Besides, he had a Pats connection so he got a curiosity visit

He had surgery for some injury, don't remember what it was though

back, I think?

its looking possible that neither see a contract this offseason, and that one of the two sees a franchise tag, and other walks

and i hate that scenario, but its likely

with a 1st rd pick invested at wr, breaston fresh off a new deal and reliable

id franchise carr…..but thats just me

Maybe the front office talked to his agent to kinda get a feel for what Routt's asking price is

and maybe try to give Carr something comparable if it isn’t outrageous.

Can Routt sign with a team before FA officially starts?

I’m pretty ignorant of how all these things work.

I think so

Other FA become free agents in March because that is when their contracts end. Anyone without a contract can sign anywhere

Yes.

The FA date is for those players still under contract from 2011, not players who are already free agents. Just like the ex-Broncos safety the Chiefs just signed.

Right on

Seems that whatever deal Routt gets could set the stage for Carr’s contract.

Please god tell me Jerry Jones is at the cap

Or Routt may get Revis money.

Pioli doing his job

Good to hear.

RamX21 - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

He most likely called to get a quick number from his agent

Then he’s gonna bounce that off of Carr’s agent

RamX21 - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

Forget Carr!

He wants more money than Flowers! And thats not going to happen with Flowers having better stats with less playing time not to mention with Flowers INT’s hes got TD’s to go with them. Good Bye Carr you greed will catch up to you soon…..

Where did you hear/see that Carr wants more $ than Flowers?

evidence if you would sir or mam, or whatever…

Easy

KC has already offered him a contract twice. He turned it down and he wants to test free agency. He will get more money than Flower there. Also the front office didn’t like the show me the money (fingers rubbing together) on national TV a couple of time this year. Carr is good but not #1 corner good. Just like Routt

Not angry, just posting :)

No vinegar or piss there. Okay, a little piss, but my boxers soaked it up.

Where did you see that KC offered him two contracts that he rejected. Sources my good man. Sources.

Lets just say

I work with Masterplan Group out of Chi town…

I'm a show me kind of guy.

Unnamed sources don’t do it for me at all. Besides, if Carr is really going there and KC wants him he’s gonna get tagged.

D-Bowe most likely will get tagged.

Unnamed look up Masterplan group… it will say all hahaha

I don't think that makes sense in my armchair GM world

This is probably the deepest WR FA class ever. And Carr’s tag would cost less. Just seems to make more sense to me.

Actually, the CB tag is higher.

I have been corrected. Muchos Gracias. :)

is that still true though

with Routt’s contract now off of the average is it still skewed that much?

Carr's tag would cost more

Like $2m more if I remember correctly.

True

But when KC is the most attractive team for PEYTON you want Bowe back for sure. Carr well this 2012 draft class has bigger faster and even better DB coming out…..

Peyton's done IMO

they reported yesterday on NFLN that he still can’t throw across his body to the right

Well yeah of course

But a month ago he couldnt even throw it 30 yards, now he can throw it farther with some velocity deom what Ive heard

Hes gotta regenerate nerves ots going to take time, it hasnt wven been a year since his surgery.

Here we go

Nah

It’s a silly (recursive) argument to have. If he can’t pass the muster by the start of FA then his price tag will be way to high for a conservative GM like Pioli to go for. I like the idea of Pey-Pey to the Chiefs but only under the right circumstances. I’m not seeing it happen.

Well that's still a month away

Anything could happen

on average

nerve growth will occur at the rate of about 1 inch per month (general rule of thumb based on my own sad experience with this years ago) from the point of injury. If nerve regeneration has to happen down the length of his arm, I’m not real confident his time table is going to be very conducive to joining a new team. I’ll pass thanks.

Sign him to a contract

that pays little if he never starts and gives him the moon if we win the Super Bowl.

It should be a balance of risk/payment. Peyton has already said he’d sign a contract that was heavy on incentives.

Would love to

but realistically, some other team won’t be that smart.

Well I won't pass

We need a franchise QB, and even 75% Manning is still better then Cassel.

I would have a huge problem with that

me too

Kitty, you must have some seriously good sources to know precisely what happened with Carr and the Chiefs

KC has already offered him a contract twice. He turned it down and he wants to test free agency

Because someone that incorporates money

into a celebration of a good play only cares about 1 thing. So you have to imagine that he makes a huge game changing play and the first thing on his mind isn’t winning the game or celebrating with his teammates it’s getting paid.

It’s say a lot without saying much

RamX21 - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

Money is the first thing on everyone's mind

I love my job, but if they, in my opinion, low-balled me I’d be looking elsewhere for employment as well. Carr’s a good player and has just as much right to maximize his earnings as any other red blooded american (and even some green blooded ones). Love me some capitalism.

Exactly, how long would you show up to work if the checks stopped coming?

Carr has been working on a cheap rookie deal. He has vastly outperformed that contract and yet has never held out. Time for him to get paid. I love that his tounge in cheek “pay me” celebration.

^This

Further, if Pioli was as smart as he makes himself out to be...

he would have paid Carr the next day.

What if Carr doesn't want to get paid by the Chiefs?

What if his agent is telling him he’ll get the most money by going to FA? It’s not an unreasonable scenario…

To HIV’s point it should have never gotten to free agency in the first place. Wave a big sign in bonus at him last year and I bet he signs a reasonable contract.

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

One thing I do agree on

Carr has been way underpaid his whole career and never said a word.

Sure he does

But when you want more$$$ than the better DB on the team….. ummmmm see ya later

He's the better DB, he should be paid more

What?!?!?!

Flowers #‘s are better and Flower hasn’t start as many games… Even Flower has TD and Carr has none… show one stat thats better other than games started

Stats, theyre meaningless for a corner

Nnamdi had the worst stats Ive ever seen, still was one one of the top corners in the league.

Hard to accumulate stats when QBs are affraid of throwing at you

Meh

I’d call them pretty much equal in coverage. Carr’s better at sticking with the guy, but Flowers has better awareness overall and gets his head turned around (which still hurts Carr at times).

For me, what does it is tackling ability. Flowers is one of the best in the business against the run. Carr’s all right.

Edge to Flowers as overall player. But I don’t think the difference is so significant that you can’t pay them the same amount

Carr is getting better at turning his head around, he improves every year

I think that may a bit of his problem this last year, because he’d turn his head around and a WR would pull a double move on him.

Plus Flowers did not look really as good as a tackler this year, I saw him get beat quite a few times.

I saw Carr get beat quite a few times also

End of the day, the difference isn’t all that great. But I’d take Flowers before Carr.

MNchiefsfan - February 11, 2012 reply

Flower

Scores points…. Heck 2 of Carr ints this year where when the game was over and the other team was desperate

Scores points? Yeah once a year maybe

Not enough to go home and tell your mom about it.

And any INT that can seal a game is a good INT to me.

Flowers did it right

He knew he was going to get paid…. not worried about the money… the 2012 draft have bigger and faster and not to mention better DB coming out…. Game on for the cheaper DB’s

You make no sense, which makes perfect sense since your argument is lost

It takes a couple years to develop corners, and Carr is ready to go now.

What

DB’s from Alabama…LSU…etc play in pro style D’s… Arenas only 5’9 would play outside but played greatt yr1 in the slot as a nickle. That is the hardest to do than Corner outside. slot is the goto guy for most O’s in the NFL

College rules are different, as are the WRs

Their is a huge step up into the pros, and Arenas struggled anlot his first year

We will not find a player of Carrs caliber who can play now In the draft

Plus Carrs ceiling Is higher than Flowers’

Clairborne and Kirkpatrick are not Carr's caliber?

Hell throw Jenkins in there too. Knucklehead that he is.

Not year one theyre not

Theyll struggle just like Patrick Peterson, Dre might even have to move to Safety tbh

Like Berry did?

If Carr walks, you have to think long term and any of those cats in the draft would do. Besides, just cause they are a rookie doesn’t mean they won’t figure it out in year one. (Not likely). But look at Berry.

Safety isnt a corner

Lmao

True, but it is a position in the secondary that traditionally struggles

And Berry didn’t play saftey. He played Reed/Polamalu. If I had to guess what was more difficult to pick up, #2 CB or Leader of the Defense, I’d go with Berry’s position.

Berry as a prospect was like once a generation

No corner prospect in this draft can even hold the same candle.

Berry struggled too, he still allowed the most TDs in the league his rookie year.

Very much this.

Berry didn’t come on strong until the second half of his rookie year.

MtHammer - February 10, 2012 reply

Patrick Peterson's struggles

can be attributed that they had nobody lined up across from him since they traded away DRC plus the fact there was no offseason due to the lockout. A lot of rookies struggled.

CapsLockKey - February 10, 2012 reply

Getting beat straight up

Has nothing to do with having a guy on the other side, even with DRC he’d still be facing the same guys.

He did get better as the year progressed.

Granted it does matter who's on the other side

However, he was getting beat by speed, and even with DRC on the other side it’d still happen.

what about

Dre Kirkpatrick
Janoris Jenkins
Morris Claiborne
Alfonzo Dennard
Stephon Gilmore
Leonard Johnson

They won be as good as Carr year one

And yes some of hose guys are just worser talents in general, like half of them actually

You think all six of those guys

Are going to be as good or better than a top 15 corner in the NFL? The draft doesn’t work that way.

I like minnfield myself.

kc-twitch - February 10, 2012 reply

Carrs ceiling is higher then flowers?

how do we know that? Just an opinion? One was a fifth rounder and one was a second.. I understand that doesnt mean too much, but scouts obviously thought differently then you.

Because hes a thousand times more athletic

Taller, faster, stronger, he came from a small schOl so didnt get proper coaching.

Flowers floor was huge brcause he had great technique, why he was considered a first rounder even wih his size and speed. But his ceiling wasnt very high because of that sMe size and speed, Carr is the opposite

Not sold on that yet

maybe this year may change that

Lol not sold on it how?

What do you think ceiling and floor are?

This is your opinion

I think Flowers has a higher ceiling and if I had to choose between the two, Id pick him.. Though, I still think Carr is solid.

You obviously think the other way. And your way I am not SOLD on… Makes fucking sense to me. If you need me to break it down more, let me know

How does Flowrs have a higher ceiling?

You fail to explain it.

I gave my reasoning, now I want to hear yours

From my own eyes

I see he is better and is getting better. Tech. is better 2 me. Has a better football IQ to me.Like I said, this is my opinion, nothing is a fact, not even what your mumbling about.

Why did Carr go to a small school? Did the college scouts not see something like the nfl scouts?

But that does t mean he has a higher ceilig

Potential, upside are what give you a higher ceilig and Carr has that way more then Flowers.

Your reasons were that Carr is bigger faster and stronger.

To me…that doesn’t give someone a higher ceiling.

Dont know how ot doesnt

He was raw and hadnt even learned how to turn his head around, and is still developing his ball skills.

His ceiling was Huge, but its all about reaching the potential and Emmitt has been a godsend.

Ill tell you what

in three years, lets revisit this convo and discuss our OPINIONS and see whos was turned into a FACT…

Deal

Carr is better then Flowers already so I win ;)

ha

this is rigged

Carr

currently isn’t on the level of Flowers

How so?

Flowers allows more TDs, cant handle speed very and can get beaten by no names.

Carr is way more consistent, and this is the #1 thing for corners, see Decin McCourty.

Flowers tackles better

catches better. Not sure why you are dissing Flowers. He has made excellent plays.. People say they think Carr is Solid, but feel Flowers still has an edge on him.. With you, its all praise to Carr and shit on Flowers like he is a bum in this league..

There is a case to be made for both sides here, and thats great for the chiefs. But I dont think one is clearly so far ahead of the other where you can actually make such strong claims as if your opinion is the only thing here

Revis gave up TDs too

in fact, Revis and Flowers had very similiar stats in 2011

Revis: 52 tack. 4 INTs 1 TD 21 PD 1 Stuff

Flowers: 59 Tack. 4 INTs 1 TD 20 PD 2 Stuffs……..

Stats for corners? Again?

Try advanced statistics, theirs a reason Revis is number one and its not because of a normal stat sheet

So you dont like stats for corners

yet you speak of advanced STATS??

Which is it

Advanced Stats are much more usefull

Then looking at a game log sheet and seeing, Tackle numbers and INTs

Forget stats, watch a game. Revis shuts down moss, Marshall, Johnson, every game. Flowers was getting burned by jacoby ford on the regular. Not saying he’s shitty, but he’s not revis yet…..

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

marshall burned revis if i recall

Moss has too( play revis was hurt on). Everyone gets burned. Jacoby ford is a fast fucker.

Never said flowers was on revis’s level

I'm not dissing Flowers

I just dont think he’s better then his teammate.

Tackling for a corner is silly, they don’t see enough plays that that warrants anything, and he catches better? How can he catch anything if he can’t reach the ball due to his height.

Look I love Flowers, but he does have his deficiencies and you’re ignoring them as well.

I'm just of the opinion that Carr's Positives outweigh his negatives

Flowers, not so much. He’s a great tackler, leader and has great awareness and ball skills. But he’s in a small package and is athletically challenged(as far as NFL Corners go) so can’t reach that full potential because of it.

I did kinda put words in your mouth there

you werent dissing Flowers, just making him seem like he should be a 3rd stringer

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/

Actually I might change my opinion based on this

Yes, Carr is solid

If flower has a great 2012 year and Carr has an off year, youll see the same flip flopping shit like always..

fair point

Carr has been solid for two years running now

I doubt he has an off year, especially if we re-sign him and our pass rush takes off with Houston-Hali.

Carr Ranks top 10 in two categories

and last year was rated a top 10 corner overall, where’s Flowers at? I thought he was better…

ive seen sources that doesnt have carr ranked top ten

Doesnt prove shit…we are wasting to much time on this issue..we can go back and forth over what brandon is better. Still goes back to the fact that nothing clearly seperates the two except pref.

Brandon is clearly better than brandon…there

a thousand x's?

did he run the 40 in 1.5 secs or what. C’mon man

tomachop - February 10, 2012 reply

More to an athlete then 40 times

then fucking what?

You keep hollering out that a website has carr in top 10 CBs and flower isnt, which is all based on stats, which you dont like.

I am telling you that my own eyes and watching games, that Flowers(IMO,again), is the better of the two, though not by much. That isnt off stats or 40 times either, its all based on watching. You read a website that gives ranks and determined your opinion. Go read what all these professionals in the league still feel about Flowers. He took more risk this year on going after INTS and paid for it. And as far as his size, if it was a major factor he wouldnt of went in the second fucking round. It doesnt push him out of the league ,which is what you make it seem. They both can play ball. One isnt way above another. You try and support your love for carr by making flowers look like he is a bum, which neither are..

Got a bottle waiting for me so ill end it on this note. Lets hope carr and flowers both start in probowl wearing chiefs helmets. Cheers

Agreed

I’ve been reading this nonsense on AP for days now. Someone wrote it and others thought is sounded good. Frankly I’m not even all that sure why flowers and carr are viewed as #1 and #2 CB’s anyway. Why? Because that’s the typical convention? I call BS. They’re different players with complementary skill-sets that play side-by-side. Why wouldn’t he be worth money similar to flowers? It’s a unique tandem and I don’t think for an istant that the powers that be are so stupid that they don’t realize it. I don’t think carr is going anywhere.

yes

by powers that be I’m talking about Scott Pioli. No. I don’t think he’s an idiot.

Kitty, you best check the charts at Por Football Reference

Car is in Top Ten in not one but TWO diff stat categories

he IS a #1 CB

-

No I dont

Don't really like the player/agent

release the names of people that called. That’s personal business that should be kept between both parties involved. Fans like to hear it…but that’s not how business is conducted.

It's called leverage

Damn you and your speedy replies :)

seconded

I don't care what it's called... PERSONALLY I don't think that's how business should be conducted.

But if you were Routt, would you agree with it?

The financial future of yourself and your family is at stake. I can’t blame anyone for trying to maximize their value.

Yeah

something tells me that an agent who talks isn’t going to cost Routt much money in terms of his contract…

depends

If I wanted to sign with the Chiefs, Cowboys, Vikings, Bills, or Titans… I wouldn’t be putting their name out there like that. When people do business, they like to do it discretely.

This happens all the time

Remember Shaun Rodgers was reported as talking to 3 teams including us before he signed with the Saints

And Scott Boras is the king of all agents

He practically invented playing teams off each other to drive up prices. It’s worked well for him. I don’t like what he’s done to baseball, but can’t argue with his results.

So..

Again, I don’t like that players do that. It helps the player…but hurts the team going after him.

Please!

The financial future of yourself and your family is at stake

Your telling me that a couple of million here or there wouldn't make a difference in your life

Change it to thousands and insert yourself into the discussion:

“You really should work here, but you need to be a team player. I know company X will pay you several thousand more dollars over the course of several years than we will, but you should be a team player and take a cut”

Just because the money seems like monopoly money to you doesn’t mean that the amount is irrelevant. Carr or Routt will work, if they are lucky, for 10 years then they and their families will live off of it for the next 40-50 years. You think a couple of million doesn’t have an impact long term?

Well said

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

I’m not gonna act like their well-being is in jeopardy. They are making millions to play a game.

I agree

unless they"re Chiefs players I want re-signed. I’m a greedy bastard though

tomachop - February 10, 2012 reply

this

Lots of people trying to gain leverage. Most of all I see Pioli trying to pressure Carr into a deal by courting other corners

Meh, agents are supposed to hype up their players

They all have different styles.

Hyping up your players is one thing

Release the names of people that have called on them is another.

Agents don't work for the team

really?

that’s news….

His point is

It’s the agent’s job to do what he can to help the client. That includes creating leverage.

My point is, from my point of view

Is that a move like Routt and his agent are doing is bad for the teams listed. Again, I’m speaking in regards to the Chiefs since we were listed. I don’t like the fact that the Chiefs were listed…if anything it will just raise the price of this guy.

Again… good for Routt and his agent, but I don’t like the fact that he listed the teams involved.

If anything

That will hurt the chances of that player signing with any of the mentioned teams. How much will it hurt him? who knows, but it definitely doesn’t help.

Doesn't help?

Team wants to sign player. Agent tells team that he has already visited with three other teams. Players price goes up. Agent does his job and is retained by player. Seems helpful to me.

It seems pretty reasonable that if a team has a need at CB

they would do their due diligence and call on the guy. No GM should be thinking they’re the only one going after him. The fact that a player you are interested in is announcing you are interested in him to the entire NFL would be a negative impact on me if I was one of the GM’s.

It would have a negative impact on how I view the agent

But if the player was somebody I wanted on my team, I’d hold my nose and do business.

Both those kind of tactics

would hurt all the teams involved. I’m looking at this from the Chiefs perspective. Not the greedy player/agents perspective.

You need to look at it feom every perspective

Why? I'm a Chiefs fan... not a Routt fan

You dont need to be a fan

Just have to realize their is more then one perspective, you know empathy. Its the only way world peace can be achieved.

So what's your point?

This was asked in the article: “By the way, I wonder how the Chiefs feel about the agent throwing their name out there publicly?”
I’m a Chiefs fan, my perspective and comment was made from a Chiefs fan’s perspective.

Empathy thats all I say

20 years too late. Nobody understands that word anymore.

Yeah its pretty sad

A people care are them and theirs

*all people care about are them and theirs

Its always the greedy player/agent never the tightwad owner/GM

When did player hating become so trendy?

Since players started getting paid.

/shrug

Always and never. Totally.

Because nobody in the history of foreverness has gone on at great length around here about the team owner / GM.

Ever.

TRSChief - February 10, 2012 reply

Greedy players?

Why are the owners who drive up parking/tickets/beer/jersey/TV/etc… considered businessmen, while players that attempt to drive for the best bargain they can considered greedy?

It’s all tactics.

Because there's a cap in the NFL....

I don’t like parking/ticket prices going up either… but that’s on the owner. The GM has only so much room to work with. Why do you think Routt was cut in the first place? Because his contract was stupid. There’s only so much room with a cap guys.

I think he was cut becuase he underperformed that contract

Not because it was ridiculous. Revis at those numbers would have been a steal. If the market doesn’t bear out what Routt wants in a contract he can take less $ or retire. Welcome to capitalism.

Of course the NFL is not capitalism because they cap the money available for employees. Wonder if the NFL would be open to capping the numbers on GM’s and coaches as well. See how that goes over.

NFL owners would love capping GMs and coaches.

Of course, that would be illegal, so they can’t.

But somehow legal to do it to players

Huh…funny old world

It's legal because of the CBA.

That is why the owners didn’t want the union to disband. The CBA allows them to get away with a lot of otherwise illegal crap. The draft being another thing.

No, it's legal because the NFL has received an exemption from the laws of the land

The salary cap is illegal in every other industry outside of sports. The NFL’s anti-trust exemption does not make it “legal”. It makes it “exempt” from the law.

Exactly

The only reason there was a 2011 draft

was because that was part of the last CBA. There would not have been a draft this year if the lockout was still in effect.

The antitrust exemption only works if there is collective bargaining.

Players make decisions to make themselves a couple million more when making deals, teams make decisions to save tens of millions always. Look at the Peyton Manning situation right now…..everything he has done for the Colts and they’re worried about 28million. No one is calling the colts greedy they’re saying its business. Which is complete bullshit because every time a player does it I.e pujols he’s made out to be a greedy asshole.

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

Truth

This is why Drew Rosenhaus is the top agent

It's amazing that you guys are

talking up Agents and Players getting more money… you know that hurts the teams they’re in negotiations with right? It would “hurt” the Chiefs.

If your job was to abuse your body on a daily basis

wouldn’t you be trying to maximize your earning potential before it was too late?

Again...

This hurts the Chiefs… that’s what I care about. I don’t care about a guy like Routt.

I'm not too worried about teams that get $100M+ from TV deals and then spend 10's of millions under the cap

That's why the cap rule has been changed.

this year right?

2012 is the year they make them spend it?

Nope, 2013

Supply and demand my man

Carr is critical to this team

As critical as I’ve been of Scott Pioli, I have no doubt he will sign Carr. It would be a disaster if he left. I can’t believe he would let that happen.

ChiefConcern - February 10, 2012 reply

Don't get me wrong I've always liked Carr

I think he is a little over hyped. I don’t think he is worth #1 CB money….

groundedchevy - February 10, 2012 reply

dont see why not

Flowers is no Nnamdi, and Carr sure doesnt play 2nd string to him either

Neither of them is Nnamdi

And so neither should get superstar money

his value raises because of how he meshes with our secondary.

Remember

One of the few areas where the chiefs defense struggled this past season was at the nickel and dime corner positions. Arenas, Daniels, and Brown were all decent but in the new pass happy nfl having 3 stud corners isn’t really a bad idea. Sure it’s a ton of money to invest into one position, but it’s certainly something worth looking into. Also don’t discount the fact that Routt was cut by the raiders, taking less money to sign with their rival could make a impact.

Rollo80 - February 10, 2012 reply

Berry

Mr. Eric Berry helps out tremendously in this area. We missed that greatly.

SnagsAO - February 10, 2012 reply

Were just gauging the market, is ot lloks good if were looking elsewhere instead of standing still

I doubt we sign Routt, hes just to limited for what we want

KansasCityShuffle - February 10, 2012 reply

Not feeling it

It shows they’re anticipating Carr’s departure.

Like any good organization would do

yep

just testing the waters.. I am not reading into it too much

yep

I’d rather the Chiefs have a backup plan than be caught with their pants down if Carr leaves.

This

KansasCityShuffle - February 10, 2012 reply

I'd personally

rather be caught with my pants down “irregardless” of the situation.

I've never seen anyone write irregardless,

no other thought just an observation of a non-standard word

KansasCityShuffle - February 10, 2012 reply

Intended

Hence the quotations turdface

really? turdface.

wow

I have never seen anyone write turdface.

no other thought just an observation of a non-standard word. LOL

well played

I tried, but I keep reading this as a good natured statement, not one of malice

“Intended dear sir, hence the quotations, turdface”.

severn58 - February 10, 2012 reply

Agreed

you ever notice that we draft a player at a position that we are at the risk of losing in house players to FA every year

Ugh...my heart sinks reading this

First, I don’t want this guy, I have a friend at work who’s a huge Raider fan and after seeing how happy he was this guy is leaving, no way I want him on our team. Then there is Carr, yeah we should be prepared, but in reality we should have signed Carr last year.

Spiderwomn69 - February 10, 2012 reply

If I was a raiders fan (hurts to say that)

I wouldnt be happy about him leaving.. Maybe moneywise, but as far as talent, this guy isnt bad.. I wouldnt call him a # 1 but still wouldnt be happy if I was raider

Hoping this is maneuvering by Pioli

Showing he will pursue corners like Rout and Finnegan (sp) to get Carr signed before the bidding gets more heated.

Please God...no

Cortland Finnegan. The guy just seems like a bitch to me.

just for posturing

to get Carr to sign

Hea a pretty damn good corner

He talks smack, but being a 7th rounder going up against 1st rounders I would too.

I wouldnt try fighting Andre Johnson though

You may recall when Andre Johnson beat the ‘F’ out of him.

I think you mean Corland Innegan.

MtHammer - February 10, 2012 reply

Classic shit there guy

REC’n that Mutha

Ha good one

TheScootness - February 10, 2012 reply

hope so, but iwant nothing to do with courtland finnegan, or stanford routt

Asante Samuel

Pats let him walk, and he was a better CB than Carr. How much of it was Pioli, how much Belichick, and how much was the cap I don’t know…

jmcgoblue - February 10, 2012 reply

Samuel also was a lot riskier

Carr is Mr. Conservative

And its even more of a passing league now then it was then.

Pass rushers and good CBs you keep.

GenericBrand - February 10, 2012 reply

Samuel could actually have a place here with Berry and Lewis

Samuel is a huge risk taker and sometimes it results in a huge play. Luckily we have one of the best safety tandems in the NFL

better example is ellis hobbs, he traded hobbs after an identical season to carr's for the most part in int's, tackles and pd's....

Anybody else having issues replying to comments?

I can comment without a problem in the main thread

Sam D - February 10, 2012 reply

Just hit cancel and try again.

Be sure to copy/paste your comment though. :)

Does Routt's release now lower Carr's franchise tag?

I feel like the only way that Carr stays in KC is on the tag. I kind of get the feeling he wants to go somewhere else. It’s lucky for us though, our other big free agent (Bowe) has publicly said he want to spend his career in KC

Why do you get that feeling?

I am of the impression he likes it in KC.

I always got the feeling he'd prefer to stay in KC too.

just had to be the right deal. Nothing wrong with that. Don’t know why so many are convinced that the team won’t give him the right deal and that him leaving and being disgruntled is a foregone conclusion.

Routt is one of the fastest corners in the leauge

Sure carr is better right now,but with our db coach routt could really shine as #2 cb. If letting go of carr means you sign routt,soliai & manning,you have to let him go imo.. Dont forget flowers tweet.

chief913-816 - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

Flowers tweet?

you mean the one with the HTML formatting error?

He said me and #39 are done..

We can agree to disagree.

chief913-816 - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

That's not what he said.

He said he was done (he was working out or something). The #39; was html code for an apostrophe.

I hope you are right

chief913-816 - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

Hahahaha!

smh

TRSChief - February 10, 2012 reply

I don’t get why people are worried what we’ll pay a player when at anytime the team can just cut them if the deal isn’t to their liking

Rupert Daniels - February 10, 2012 via mobile reply

It all depends on how the deal is structured

there are still cap ramifications to be taken into consideration

cant use routt as an example though, if anything hes an example of how not to structure a deal, they are just starting new

the chiefs cant afford to make that mistake with carr

NFL season ticket holder - February 10, 2012 reply

Sounds like the kiss of death. it's very unlikely that he will be coming to KC now even if Brandon leaves.

replace carr and feel the wrath of fans like myself who would weep