Arrowhead Pride

You can forget Orton

There’s as much chance of him signing as Manning

Unfortunately, you are probably right.

Makes you wonder if Daboll is not the new fall guy for Cassel.

Maybe he's actually a good

coordinator and Cassel is a better QB than most fans think? Chiefs are a talented team and should win the AFC West easily, with Cassel.

No

I was referring to the comment above that said “this”, referring to trading up to get Griffin.

I’ve never seen anyone throw a ball like that kid can, but there is no way to get from where the Chiefs are to the two spot without fracturing the team for years.

The team is fractured now without a quarterback.

I see your point, but there is free agency to work with. Everything starts with the quarterback and we do need to improve that position with something, whether its Orton or someone else.

This is where I hit a fork in the road with many fans

I would love the Chiefs to improve at QB, but most fans seem to think ANY QB is an upgrade over Cassel and..they..are..wrong!

Orton, is not an upgrade, period. People talk about his three games. Big deal. I could also pick them apart, but, more to the point, the fans would be screaming about him five games into the 2012 season.

It’s just not that easy to drop a playoff/pro-bowl QB on your team. There are not going to be any draft choices to start right away and no true legitimate free agents to SIGNIFICANTLY improve over Cassel.

It’s simply the fans “hate” of Cassel at this point that’s become their misguiding belief that anyone could be a better QB.

I can see both sides of the argument on Orton.

I have eyes that tell me that Cassel is a mediocre quarterback that will never win a super bowl. It is not hate, or dislike, it is what I see clearly. Nothing misguided, just plain fact, he stinks.

I would maybe even say

He’s ok at best . Just not good enough …

chiefsman! - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Name 10 starting qbs in the NFL

that are worse than Cassel, and remember we’re still talking about the bottom 3rd of the league. I bet you can’t name more than 5 that aren’t in their 1st or 2nd year

Palko stinks

not Cassel. big difference

I agree.

But Cassel is NOT going to win a super bowl.

It's a sad thing...

That Cassel is so average, that he makes Orton look like a much better option.

We’ve just been accustomed to not having a good QB for so long. Too long.

Scott B. - February 12, 2012 reply

I wouldn't argue that either.

such a subjective comment

I happen to think Orton is a naturally more skillful QB than Cassel. But are we critical of the team or just the fans? QB is a huge problem for this team and it looks as though it’s going to continue to be for quite some time. Naturally we fans are going to have plenty to say about it.

Buck'O - February 12, 2012 via iPhone app reply

I think they're different

Each has strenghts and weaknesses, which are different.

Orton has a better arm, quicker release. He’ll throw for more yards, or has historically, but that’s been more a function of the teams Cassel has been on, the number one rushing team.

Cassel is much tougher, can run, and IF he has good protection and time, can throw very, very well.

But, the point is, they both make big mistakes at the wrong time and their careers will show that at this point.

I can agree with that

Buck'O - February 12, 2012 via iPhone app reply

Actually there careers show that Orton has gotten way more out of less

As Ive said before Matt is actually older than Orton but he seems to be still being taught the position while Orton is much further along in his individual skills ,knowledge and know how .

That comes from Orton being a starter throught college and the pros and matt being a backup.

Ortons big mistakes come on him throwing the ball 40-50 times game against defenses playing the pass . with limited offensive weapons.

Matts come on 20-30 passes a game with a good running game and other offensive weapons.

What catches everyones eye about Orton and those last three games is that everyone knows that Orton wasnt running an offense designed around his strengths but one that was designed around Matts and he came out and ran like he was a 5th graders asked to kindergarten work .

"Nothing against (Palko) or (Cassel), man, just — Kyle is a new beast out there with us," fullback Le’Ron McClain said. "He ran the whole game on the sideline, coming to us on certain plays, telling us in the huddle — boom, boom, ‘Just get open for me right here.’ "

Again this quote doesnt say to me that the team thought Orton was Rodgers or some HOF QB but it does tell me that what we were running was ultra simplistic and neither Palko nor Matt could run it well enough to give the team a chance to win games with it .

We went from seeing the redzone twice a game with Matt who was in it for 3 years

once a game with Palko

3 times a game with Orton who had only been it in a few weeks and had a bad finger

Thats your difference right there

Ortons brings you 3 redzone trips just on execution alone but he also brings you the ability to hit from deep .

So making a change from Matt to Orton is not a lateral move there numbers and ability clearly show that

But all of this is moot because Orton will not sign if Matts on the team and they have the same agent

Willie Beamon - February 12, 2012 reply

exactly

well said , and i think orton fits better in what Daball wants to do .

Did you see him last year?

bossmanham - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Did I see Cassel?

I’ve seen every game he’s ever played, minus a couple, including the ones with the Pats.

Then you should know what he just hasn't improved on in 4 seasons of starting

Those problems will continue to hold this team back.

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Really?

It’s all Cassel? This year was all his fault? Seriously? He’s been the starting QB for THREE seasons here.

First one was Herms mess. The second was a division title and pro-bowl and this year was everyone’s mess.

Five offensive coordinators in three years, three head coaches now, and it’s all his fault?

Why does it have to be all Cassel's fault?

Why can’t we just chalk it up to him not being talented enough to overcome the team’s shortcomings?

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

There are not a lot of QB's

That are good enough to cover an entire teams short comings, such as what Brady did this year with that team, and what Manning has obviously been doing for years.

Someone wants to bring in a serious upgrade over Cassel, I’m all for it. Nobody, absolutley nobody as any realistic suggestion of obtaining one.

If Pioli does his job and everyone comes back healthy, I’ve got one year left in me for Cassel to make the jump he should.

He doesn’t need to be Brady, but he needs to get this team into the playoffs, and win.

PS… don’t know why my posts keep re-posting

That's the issue

He gets us to the playoff and throws 90 yards and 3 interceptions .. How will he ever win a playoff game :/

chiefsman! - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

So what is the point of arguing either side?

Clearly you believe Cassel can make the jump. 85% of fans do not believe he can.

There are less signs for him making the jump to being a consistently good QB than there are signs for.

He has not shown any repeated, long periods of having sound pocket presence, making throw progressions, or respectable accuracy. But I’m sure you have a few reasons you believe outweigh these signs. So it goes.

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

No, you don't read what I write

I don’t see any viable option to seriously upgrade the position, that’s all.

Nobody has any realistic ideas as well.

That was my point above. People think ANY QB is an upgrade and they’re wrong.

Orton is a lateral move, at best and please spare me his three games, plus he won’t sign here anyway.

WHO is the upgrade?

Contrary to your beliefs

Orton is must definitely an upgrade to Cassel. But I do somewhat agree with you that he isn’t enough of a significant step up from Cassel to give Orton the long term contract he will likely receive.

If you don’t see all of the on-field tangible skills that Orton greatly trumps Cassel in, perhaps it isn’t about other fans “hate” of Cassel blinding them, perhaps its more the “hate” for Orton that is blinding you

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Nothing to do with it

He’s simply not worth making a change for.

You want to bring in a HEALTHY Peyton Manning for a solid two/three years, I am ALL over it.

He’d have this team in the SB, or at least contending for it next year. Too bad it won’t happen.

I’d love, LOVE to have Griffin. Kid is unreal. Ain’t going to happen.

In the last three games the Chiefs spent enough time in the red zone to become communists. Orton threw two key int’s in the red zone.

MY point- If Cassel had been the QB during those games the people on forums like this would be killing him. Orton? They act like he was the second coming of Tom Brady.

So we have 3 seasons of Cassel on this team marred with mediocrity

And 3 games of Orton who didn’t light the world on fire but obviously has much better physical attributes at the QB position, greatly improved the time of possession which concurrently improved the defense, and was only sacked ONCE behind the same line that got Cassel sacked a ridiculous number of times before he was injured, yet there is just absolutely no way Orton is an upgrade to Cassel, huh?

Yeah, I’m thinking you aren’t thinking clearly. Let the hate flow through you

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Not sure why you have to say something so stupid

Like “let the hate flow through you”, but that’s your shortcoming, not mine.

Anyway, what has Orton accomplished in his career that leads you to believe he will take the Chiefs to the Super Bowl?

its not so much that orton will or can

its just he has a better shot. Cassel is a huge choker in playoffs . Orton isnt a savior of the team , but his fit may be the chiefs , as seen in the 3 games he played with us . imagine him with REAL practice time with the chiefs. hes just better at moving the ball.

You are the one claiming all of the fans are just blinded by the "hate" for Cassel

Don’t sling the mud if you can’t take some to the face, friend-o

Where does saying “Orton is an upgrade over Cassel” translate to “Orton will definitely win a super bowl”??? “Why do you have to say something so stupid?”

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

A SB is a team accomplishment

Willie Beamon - February 12, 2012 reply

I disagree

I think people were surprised to see a QB in a chiefs uniform that could check down and fling the ball with some authority. I don’t think anyone believes he’s the second coming. And with little time to work with the team, the expectations were pretty low actually. More than anything it was an eye opener as to how bad Cassel really is because we actually had something to compare him too.

Buck'O - February 12, 2012 via iPhone app reply

Yessir. Right on the money.

indeed

Ninjaman - February 12, 2012 reply

Cassel has played for 3 full season (last year he got injured and who know how much better or worse he would have played had he finsihed the season).

2008: 11-5 and ‘just’ missed the playoffs.
2009: 4-12 taking over the worst team in Chiefs History (at least since I started watching in the late 80’s.
2010: 10-6 lead the team to the playoffs.
2011: 4-5 and injured. Not 100% sure, but I think he could have played better than Palko and won the west again had our O-Line keep him upright for the whole season.

That is not bad for a guy that was riding the bench his whole life before 2008.

KCRiseFromTheAshes - February 13, 2012 reply

Chiefs could be in prime position to pick up Kellan Moore

Moore broke records at Boise State U. The kid’s got a hell of an arm and makes great decisions. We could do a LOT worse. If he’s there, which all indications are that he will be, we should take him! I’ve seen this kid play…..he does have star potential and zero ego.

I wouldnt pinpoint

Casuals lack of physical ability on coaches. Yes there was alot going on, but if he cant adjust then hes not good enough , so ur saying he has another excuse next year because we got daball ?

chiefsman! - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Who were the "five" OC's and "three" Head Coaches Cassel has had in three years?

Scott B. - February 12, 2012 reply

Sorry, didn't mean head coaches

Chan Gailey, Todd Haley, Charlie Weis, Bill Muir and I forget the person Haley “named” after Gailey left, but we know that Haley was the OC for much of his time.

Orton had a bunch of offensive coordinators as well.

In fact two last season alone! And he came to a new team and threw for 300 yards in two games with very little practice and time with the team, and with a bum finger.

Sorry, the guy is a clear upgrade.

bossmanham - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

two 300 yard games.

People keep saying that.

His first game vs. Green Bay (really 299 yards): Woot Woot he put up 299 yards and 0 TD vs one of the worst Defenses in the NFL. I was at this game, I was NOT impressed by Orton.

His second game vs. Oakland: Ya he passed for over 300 AND he got his first and ONLY touchdown with the Chiefs. Unlike Orton, the Cassel lead Chiefs hung 28 on that same Oakland team and actually WON the game.

His last game vs. Denver: The Chiefs won that game….because of Battle (you know, the only guy that scored for the Chiefs that game).

Please, STOP with this Orton is better than Cassel BS. The ONLY reason Orton went to Denver was because Pioli snagged the guy is head coach at the time (McD) REALLY wanted….MATT CASSEL.

Depressing thinking we're stuck with cassell

clark and pioli apparently dont care about winning a SB, only staying mediocre and selling tickets. if you disagree, then how to you reconcile cassell?….you can’t.

Arrowhead25 - February 12, 2012 reply

Stop saying the same tired crap and give another certain option

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Agreed

Um, another option would not be Cassell

Arrowhead25 - February 12, 2012 reply

So we will tally your vote as Palko over Cassel. Duly noted

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

LOL

I remember thinking (as others were too), Wow! Let’s see what Palko can do! Now we know… WTF was I thinking??

That should tell you all you need to know about how bad Cassel was this season

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Looking at the FA that will be open this year

Not sure which from this list I’d get too excited over. Brees. Not going anywhere. Orton. ?? Matt Flynn, Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, Donovan McNabb, Rex Grossman.
Chris Redman (ATL)
Derek Anderson (CAR)
Caleb Hanie (CHI)
Josh McCown (CHI)
Shaun Hill (DET)
Drew Stanton (DET)
Brady Quinn (DEN)
David Garrard (FA)
Chad Pennington (FA)
Jake Delhomme (HOU)
Jeff Garcia (HOU)
Dan Orlovsky (IND)
Luke McCown (JAC)
Chad Henne (MIA)
JP Losman (MIA)
Sage Rosenfels (MIA)
David Carr (NYG)
Mark Brunell (NYJ)
Kevin O’Connell (NYJ)
Kyle Boller (OAK)
Vince Young (PHI)
Charlie Batch (PIT)
Dennis Dixon (PIT)
Byron Leftwich (PIT)
Charlie Whitehurst (SEA)
Kellen Clemens (STL)
A.J. Feeley (STL)
Josh Johnson (TB)
Richard Bartel (ARZ) – Restricted
Max Hall (ARZ) – Exclusive Rights
Tyler Palko (KC) – Restricted
Brian Hoyer (NE) – Restricted
Chase Daniel (NO) – Restricted

Not a ya or ney vote

Just a “where do we go from here question?” I dunno.

from that list?

Flynn, Henne maybe, uhhh….uhhhhh

My take on FA QBs:

Elite potential, but would demand a big contract and could be Matt Cassel 3.0:
Matt Flynn

Not elite, but a probable upgrade over Cassel/would create a solid QB competition:
Kyle Orton, Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, Chad Henne, Vince Young, David Garrard

Has at least some potential, might be worth taking a low-risk flyer:
Caleb Hanie, Drew Stanton, Brady Quinn, Dennis Dixon, Josh Johnson

Actively avoid:
Everyone else

Nice break down

Can’t argue with any of it. Except maybe Hanie. I thought he was on par with Palko this season as one of the worst.

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Hanie was God-awful this year.

But he’s still young, and he was playing with very few weapons (especially once Forte went down) and an even worse offensive line.

He has, on occasion, shown some flashes of potential, particularly in the NFC championship game.

He’d definitely be a long shot that we shouldn’t count on being able to get anything out of, but so is everyone else in that category.

Now add in the Pioli factor

Who do they know and/or have ties with? Ties with our OC?

Orton was obviously with the team last year.

Henne was playing with Daboll last year and actually started off the year better than expected (of course the Dolphins were still losing games).

Quinn was with Browns, but I’m not sure if he overlapped with Daboll or not.

Phil Emery is now with the Bears but since he just got there he’s unlikely to have any insights on Hanie.

Mark Dominik, the Bucs’ GM, got his start in KC but that was back in the Carl Peterson days.

Obviously Haley is with the Steelers now but, like Emery, he just got there and wouldn’t have any connection to Dixon yet. More importantly, he and Scott Pioli hate each other.

Nice!

alright I'll bite

who’s the backup in New England

Brian Hoyer.

Though Ryan Mallet is probably going to take the job sooner rather than later.

Only person on that list worth a cr@p would be Vince Young.

Like Timmy Tebow….all that guy does is win games. Bring VY in to compete and if he beats out Cassel…start em.

yea, why not, because there are no other options

besides palko and cassell.

Arrowhead25 - February 12, 2012 reply

Hope we are aggressive in free agency

Including our guys . But also I hope we have someone good at qb to compete with cassel, I want a season with a legit number 1 qb . Don’t get me wrong I like cassel , but its time we move on from that expirment while we got the talent .

chiefsman! - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

First thing I want to hear is they've signed Carr and Bowe

Same

I wouldn’t Mind McClain and gilberry either . After Bowe and Carr tho !

chiefsman! - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Add Orton, and we agree.

I honestly think Orton is our best chance

At qb compitition , let them duke it out and honestly I think Orton wins, specially with what daball wants to install in this offense , fast tempo Ect .

chiefsman! - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Agreed.

Vince Young is the only QB that is a FA (that might have a shoot at playing for a new team) that would actually give Cassel real compition.

NigerianNightmare - February 12, 2012 reply

If for whatever reason we get Jonathan Martin or Trent Richardson in the free agency,

I want Carl Nicks no questions asked.

Time for Meet the Press

I look forward to continuing the debate, as always

Bowe to steelers

Could it be possible that Bowe could end up a steeler,if we dont resign him.Hines Ward might not be back,and we know who their offensive cordinator is now.that would piss me off period.

chiefsfool - February 12, 2012 reply

Anything is possible

Bowe already said the “contract has to be right” for him to return to the team. I’ve been saying for a LONG time that I believe Bowe will want a big contract, one that most teams may not be willing to pay him. But all it takes is one, and I’m betting he’s gone.

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

You don't think the Chiefs tag Bowe?

Tag Carr over Bowe.

But we should try to keep them both.

bossmanham - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

I would tag Bowe over Carr

I’m fine with Daniels taking over as the starter while another CB develops, maybe Brown or a future draft pick

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

Agreed RD37, we have better depth at DB than we do at WR.

The Steelers are tight on cap space (which is part of the reason they're getting rid of Ward) and have 3 excellent young receivers on the roster.

Signing Bowe to replace Ward would be spending a lot of money that they can’t really spare to fill a need that they don’t really have.

Combine that with the reports that Haley and Bowe weren’t on the best of terms when he left KC and (whether or not they’re true) I’d rate Pittsburgh as one of Bowe’s least likely destinations.

Anything’s possible, and I’ll never say never. But I’d be more a lot more worried about teams with a need at receiver and/or Chiefs connections like the Patriots, Bears, Redskins, Browns, Jags, Rams, Vikings, 49ers, etc. I could even see teams with aging #1 wide-outs and developing young quarterbacks bringing in Bowe as a replacement (e.g. for Reggie Wayne with the Colts or Steve Smith with the Panthers).

Hell, one of the AFC West teams could go after him. The Raiders seem to have about 30 really solid #2 receivers but no true #1. The Broncos have Decker and Thomas but Bowe’s ability to make acrobatic catches of poorly thrown balls, along with his monter yards after catch potential, would make him an excellent weapon for Tebow (much as he’s been for Cassel). And who knows what the Chargers are going to do with Vincent Jackson (he was playing on the franchise tag this year, right?).

I think all of those teams are more likely than the Steelers.

Haley already had one WR follow him to a new team the first chance he got (Breston).

If we let Bowe walk (please god no) I wouldn’t be shocked if he DID go to the Steelers.

few interesting things to think about

1. Browns may be willing to give a high draft pick for desean jackson , meaning they may not take RG3 and trying to give mcoy weapons , maybe even taking richardson if not giving up their first for Jackson. , 2. Eagles will be looking for a veteran WR and as willing to throw alot of money at some player , potentially bowe ? Hope not . but few things to think about. just speculation reading things via rotoworld lol .

Assuming Philly tags Jackson?

RememberDelaney37 - February 12, 2012 via mobile reply

i believe so yes.

bowe may be more comfortable leaving the AFC

and playing for "Dream Team "

Via rotowrold

“Browns GM Tom Heckert and coach Pat Shurmer both have a history with free agent DeSean Jackson from Philly. Just based on speculative dot-connecting, Jackson could make some sense in Cleveland if the Browns are willing to fork over a high pick and the long-term contract it would take to complete a deal. NFL Network’s Jason La Canfora and The Sideline View’s Adam Caplan both believe the Eagles will shop Jackson on the trade market after franchise tagging him.”

ah reply fail

oh boy i cant wait we get to watch noodle arm keep are team back another year cant wait to see this again for the 4th gad dam year.

woody555 - February 12, 2012 reply

i think palko will be released..

o the other noodle arm , yea not looking forward to it..

I don't think we'll sign a free agent QB.

I think we’ll draft another QB so that he and Stanzi can “compete” with Cassel. I do remember Scott Pioli saying he wanted to try to draft a QB every year.

Vince D - February 12, 2012 reply

yep

I see a second third or fourth round QB in our near future

Buck'O - February 12, 2012 via iPhone app reply

lemme guess, in the 7th rnd the Chiefs select

Bill Do, Quarterback William and Mary

competitive guys don’t like making mistakes, including front office guys. get real competition for cassel and drop palko. defensively, cut “always one step to late” shabby, oops sabby

0tis89 - February 12, 2012 reply

Slabby

just a slab of meat with mittens