Arrowhead Pride

http://m.fantasysp.com/player/2027385/nfl/

Route most penalized player in 2011

Pittsburgh Chief - February 15, 2012 via Android app reply

A bunch of that

had to do with the way Oak ran its D. It was like they said, “We paid you as the #1 CB, now shut down 50% of the field like Asa did.”
He was much better when he had a legit CB on the other side and had the comfort of a player over the top. His big issue was that he was so afraid of not having help he went right to pulling the Jersey or trying to force the guy to the inside.

Routt isnt't the answer for replacing Carr

Gets penalized alot from playing behind WR’s and playing catch up. Up there with most TD’s against him giving up. Al Davis over paid him for his speed, Not his talent.

denmaster - February 15, 2012 reply

He overpaid a very good #2 CB to be #1

Put Carr on the Raiders as their #1 corner and leave him alone on an island on every play and you might not like what you see from him, either.

I’d still much prefer Carr to Routt, but we could do far worse at the #2 corner position.

Yep.

can't agree more.

Hell yes

Maybe this is a good sign that he isnt going anywhere else.this would be a good addition.

chiefsfool - February 15, 2012 reply

Agreed. This is an excellent chance to build depth with Carr, and

it gives the team some options if they cant keep Carr. That said, I believe Carr is staying if the money is the same in KC as it is in Detroit. And he might be staying even if the Lions bid him into the stratosphere because KC has the cap to handle any challenge for Carr if they want to. Bottom line is KC has a huge advantage for another 3+ weeks in that they can negotiate with Carr while nobody else can. Get it done Pioli – and the sooner the better!

CurtMerzFan - February 15, 2012 reply

Or maybe...

they just want to add DB depth? Flowers, Carr, Routt, Arenas sounds nice to me

Berrygood10 - February 15, 2012 via mobile reply

60 million to Berry

50 million to Flowers. And tens of millions more to both Carr and Routt? I can see Carr or Routt, but not both.

Joel Thorman - February 15, 2012 reply

There is no chance Carr and Routt are both on this team next year.

I'm betting that neither one is.

Just my “gut” feeling.

Scott B. - February 15, 2012 reply

I hope you are wrong.

Craiggotgame - February 15, 2012 reply

Me too.

Scott B. - February 15, 2012 reply

Me three.

3 corners in today’s NFL is more of a need than a luxury.

m.yashi - February 15, 2012 reply

but those are not annual salaries

some math

Eric Berry
7/30/2010: Signed a five-year, $60 million contract. The deal contains $34 million guaranteed. 2012: $4,842,800, 2013: $7,009,000, 2014: $8.417 million, 2015: $5.155 million (Voidable Year), 2016: Free Agent

Brandon Flowers
9/16/2011: Signed a six-year, $49.35 million contract. The deal contains $22 million guaranteed, including a $10 million signing bonus. $11 million of Flowers’ guaranteed money is guaranteed for both skill and injury, although the other $11 million is guaranteed solely for injury. Another $1.25 million is available through escalators applicable to the final year. Flowers is eligible for annual $250,000 workout bonuses in seasons two through six. 2012: $5.75 million, 2013: $7.35 million, 2014: $5.25 million (+ $2 million reporting bonus), 2015: $6.25 million (+ $2 million reporting bonus), 2016: $6.5 million (+ $2 million reporting bonus), 2017: Free Agent

2012

5.75 + 4.8 = less than 10% of Chiefs cap

2013

roughly 14 million combined

2014

15+ million combined

The cap will be much, much higher by then

like nearly doubled, because of the new TV deals that will be in place.

Nope...

You have to take the signing bonus money and divide it out over the course of the contract, then add it to the salary to get the cap #.

agree just was ball parking it

if the chiefs could field 60 some odd players on 85-90 million.

I bet they could find a way to sign both CB’s if the want too

Routt is also due 5 million from the Raiders next year

wherever he signs

Which means the Chiefs could structure cheap for this year?

Not much of a ball park...

When you are leaving out as much as $34 mil just for Berry divided over 5 years. That’s up to $6.8 added to his annual salary as a cap value.

So he could be at $11.6 by himself.

Could the Chiefs find a way to sign both? Yeah they could, but with the holes on this team it would be a mistake.

hitting post too quick today....

So he could be at $11.6 by himself.

For this season.

So you’re looking at around $19 mil for Flowers and Berry combined for this season.

The $34Mil is guarenteed money

Not a $34Mil one time bonus. His bonus was likely half that or less.

Skrappy - February 15, 2012 reply

Do the math yourself...

Add up all of his annual salary’s and subtract it from $60 mil.

I agree it probably wasn’t all a signing bonus, but a lot of it was. Remember how ludicrous those rookie salaries were.

no doubt the rookies got paid way too much

I am so glad we finally have a rookie pay scale!

Skrappy - February 15, 2012 reply

"you'd be a whole lot cooler if you did"

Considering how the NFL is big on passing...

It wouldn’t hurt to have a lot of cap tied up in capable DBs.

Gotta cover a lot of receivers if you want to beat NE.

Flowers, Carr, Routt, Arenas, Berry, Lewis?

As the London yoof’s say, “Fat’s sick blood”!

London has 'yoots'?

I thought they was all from Brooklyn or da Jerzaye Shaw

Probably hard to see, but it's "yoofs", with an "F"

Watched “Attack the Block” the other day, had a bunch of South London kids in it. They don’t like to pronounce “T’s”

Jerzaye Shaw, that sounds more Boston, where they Paak da Caas.

Ahh got it.

I wanted to see Attack the Block. Looked good.

I see the Bean Town thing there. In my head it’s pronounced with a deeper accent, so it comes out Brooklyn.

Highly recommended, good flick.

Good to know

I’ll check into it.

I was going to ask that

One of the Things that I heard Romeo and Pioli say is that they have to get better all across the board. And that one of their main issues was DEPTH. Am I crazy to think that they could possibly sign Routt and Bowe, Franchise Carr and work out a deal. Or something Vice versa?? That would add depth to where if Carr or Flowers went down we would have someone to play Right??

could happen

and people would have a lot of crow to eat about KC being cheap and not building depth

Exactly!!!

Having Depth is always been one of our biggest problems. Berry goes down we have piscatelli and others that got us burnt. if someone else on the D went down there was also no depth. So why is it crazy to think that for once KC actually realizes that “Hey we need to get some depth on this team”

Depth in most cases does not come from FA

Why would Routt want to come here and be a #3 corner when he could go to another team and be a full time starter? You get your depth by drafting and developing players. We have pretty good depth at Corner if we sign Daniels and Carr/Routt.

I feel like that is merely a matter of opinion

True he could go somewhere and be a #1 Corner, but at the same time. It completely depends on what he is looking for. Is he looking to be a #1 Corner and that’s it? Is he looking to play for a contender? Or does he just want to be someplace where he’s successful and he likes competition?

I’m not saying that it would happen, or it will work. But I i know that is has happened before Nnamdi/Samuel/Rodgers-Cromartie (AND YES I KNOW THE EAGLES WERE TERRIBLE LAST YEAR). But that doesn’t mean that those corners were bad they went there because they wanted to win and thought they could help…

So Idk I understand what you are saying but I can still dream lol

IMO Philly is a little different story.

They wanted a 1st rounder for Kolb plus something extra. They Cards didn’t want to give up any more picks so Philly took Cromartie. With Samuels age and coming to the end of his contract it was insurance plus they got him for basically nothing. Also look at his salary….http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/philadelphia-eagles/dominique-rodgers-cromartie/

I see where you're going with that Thought it was a FA deal not a Trade

Like you and I said It’s just a matter of opinion. I truly believe that It all depends on what a player wants to do and what he’s looking for. In a dream world i’d like to see them sign all three FA (Bowe, Carr and Routt). That would very much help, But if we had to decide who…. I’d take Carr over Routt any day.

Here's the problem with Routt as a 'backup plan'

He can sign between now and the start of FA. Maybe he won’t, but he can.

So if the Chiefs are thinking they are going to wait and see if they can get Carr signed by the start of FA, and have Routt as the plan B, there is nothing keeping Routt from signing with someone else between now and then.

Really, they need to be giving Bowe/Carr their best offers now, if Routt is their plan B.

And yes, Bowe…b/c remember, we could get by with just signing one…franchising the other.

This.

NJ Chiefs Fan - February 15, 2012 reply

Is correct

Good point. They’re not waiting to see if they can get Carr signed before, they’re waiting to see if they can get either one signed before FA.

JComp11 - February 15, 2012 reply

Or perhaps using Routt as a bargaining chip in dealing with Carr.

Not saying I’d like that.

someone last night mentioned using Routt as a bargaining chip to sign ... Bowe

upamtn - February 15, 2012 reply

Ummmm. how's that work?

It was me saying that, and here is the idea...

You bring in Routt and make him think you are signing him. Carr’s agent thinks they won’t use the tag on Carr, and he prepares for free agency. Bowe’s agent then thinks he will get tagged, and works out a deal, because he’d rather get $20M guarenteed than the $9.5M. It’s better for Bowe to get a deal than be tagged for injury reasons.

If you pull it off and Bowe signs a deal, you can always tell Routt goodbye and tag Carr at the last moment.

Wizeguy - February 15, 2012 reply

My concern is the

Carr’s agent thinks they won’t use the tag on Carr, and he prepares for free agency

How about… Routt is brought in And Signed, Bowe is Signed. Carr is Tagged, and either Traded for pics or we end up with the baddest Backfield in the NFL.

Tag and trade can be a winning scenario. Moar picks.

I can live with Routt as a Carr replacement.

ARROWHEADSHANE - February 15, 2012 reply

I really don't think Pioli sits around all day and thinks up crap like that.

I don’t think any NFL GMs have time to screw around that way. They are all business all the time or they are unemployed.

they very well could have given Carr their best offer

and if he laughed it off, it’s a good thing they’re looking long and hard at Routt

ottawachiefsfan - February 15, 2012 reply

i agree

Seems that the only way they can use this as leverage would be if Carr really wanted to stay in KC. If not, i dont see how it would work.

They either need to ger Carr signed or at least get extremely close, or sign Routt while he is in Kc before he has a chance to sign elsewhere.

I would be pissed if Carr doesnt sign and Routt goes elsewhere

TheScreenName - February 15, 2012 via mobile reply

Greened

KCnDC - February 15, 2012 reply

Who's to say they haven't already given Carr their best offer and he rejected it.

The writing is on the wall people. Carr is Asante Samuel/Deion Branch the sequel. Pioli is going to let him walk because he’s asking for more than he’s worth. Routt being in town is the Chiefs last gesture for him to take the deal or they are moving on. Routt is a suitable enough replacement if he’s signed for value contract. Carr is going to get overpaid by somebody. He deserves it. I’ll be sad to see him go, but you don’t become a championship team by handing out contracts that are much bigger than the players value.

Hmm...

If:

He deserves it.

Then how is it:

handing out contracts that are much bigger than the players value.

His market value is what some other team is willing to pay. I know there is a feeling some team will offer him the moon, but considering our cap position, and other teams’ who people think will be in on Carr, I’m not sure we shouldn’t be able to at least match what is offered to him.

I mean he deserves it personally

He’s been underpaid the last 5 years. I don’t mind seeing the guy cash in. If he’s expecting Flowers/Joseph type money or more however, I don’t think he’s worth it for the Chiefs to re-sign. He’s probably buying into the media hype that he’s the best free agent CB to hit the market, which is true, but he would have been 3rd at best last off season. If the Chiefs were going to hand out another 50mil to another CB, I would have rather had Joseph.

*4 years

I agree but Hunt and Pioli said you build championship teams by drafting and developing your own players. Looking at it that way, what good does it do when you develop them into good players and then say you are too good we can’t afford you. Do we need to develop them into average players so we can keep them? Just another point of view to look at.

mnelson52 - February 16, 2012 reply

I'm sure Routt

would be a good addition to out D, but I’d rather pick up a NT or G (Nicks) before adding a CB.

The whole at CB...

Is just as big as G or NT if Carr walks.

hole, whole, whatever

The whole hole

gots to fill it up.

very true..

knowing what Carr’s plan before FA would be nice.. for the fans and the team.

It would be . Kinda stinks being in the dark

But there must be some sort of doubt by the chiefs if they are taking such a hard look at routt . Maybe it means nothing . But then again maybe it means something .

chiefsman! - February 15, 2012 via mobile reply

I don’t think it means much more besides the Chiefs realizing that they’d have to find a serious player to fill in for Carr. Don’t want to make it to FA with Carr gone and Routt signing somewhere else. The worst that could happen is having to use the first pick in the draft on a CB, and with the needs on OL that’d be big trouble.

JComp11 - February 15, 2012 reply

Agree completely

We have to get one of Bowe/Carr…even Routt signed before FA starts so we can tag the other position.

That is the absolute minimum that needs to be done so we can go into the draft looking to actually improve the team as opposed to hoping to tread water.

totally agree here.

We would be up sh!t creek without a #2 CB entering the draft. We definitely have other positions to fill that are in more of a need.

What if...

They sign Routt and Bowe and then Franchise Carr?

Routt might come with the right price with his 5M guaranteed from the Raiders. it wouldn’t be the worst to have Routt/Carr/Arenas/Berry in the backfield. And then the Chiefs have another year to figure out who’s the better number 2 and what they are really worth?

If I had my druthers

I’d just have em sign Carr and be done with it. But it’s a thought.

An expensive experiment

But maybe.

Additionally, if they’re forced to franchise Carr there’s always the trade option.

The more I think abou it

The more I am liking that trade option (even though I really like Carr), IF we get some solid picks for him, and IF we sign Routt.

It's overkill

If the team is spending that kind of money on the D, I’d rather see Soliai and Tulloch brought in.

Routt's available now

NT and G is not unless some more guys get cut. No reason to not go after Routt right now if they are interested in him.

63 Million reasons why

i hope we sign routt

Carr is good. But our corners now are incredibly slow.

Brendon - February 15, 2012 via mobile reply

Carr is much better than Routt

Fozzyboyd - February 15, 2012 reply

Not sure many people (other than die hard Chiefs fans) would have said that a year ago

Routt was an incredibly good #2 corner on the other side of asomugha, with a higher profile than Carr at the time.

He was good enough for them to let Asomugha walk, and that's really saying something.

He had a bad year last year, but that happens sometimes. I’m pretty sure Tamba Hali had a 3 sack season not that long ago. He seems to be OK now.

m.yashi - February 15, 2012 reply

Maybe he's not suited to playing the other side?

Yea, but Al Davis was running the Raiders then

And he was a crackhead! I can not use anything the Raiders did as justification for anything. Other than maybe doing the exact opposite…

Skrappy - February 15, 2012 reply

No one threw the ball at Asomugha

so of course Routt is gonna have more name recognition and have his stats inflated. Remember when Dexter McCleon would have a lot of int’s, he got picked on all day so he was gonna get a pick at some point.

well, it isn't a year ago, is it :-)

upamtn - February 15, 2012 reply

Yeah, but history may be about to repeat itself...

Could the Chiefs be building depth

I am not all that informed, and I understand the leverage game regarding Carr, but is there a chance this could be about adding depth? It is not like we could not use Routt along with Carr and Flowers. Also, what exactly is the plan if Carr or Flowers were lost to injury? We see what happened when we lost Moeaki and Berry.

swmochiefan - February 15, 2012 reply

$10 Mil/year for depth?

upamtn - February 15, 2012 reply

I'd like to keep Carr

But how do we know he doesn’t wanna try and go get a huge contract somewhere else . Or go to a team like Detroit to be closer to family . I think the chiefs organization has a better idea or the situation than we do at the moment . So hope for Carr but settle with routt. Or if it’s possible have both .

chiefsman! - February 15, 2012 via mobile reply

Detroit doesn't have the money to pay Carr

unless he takes a huge hometown discount and they make major changes to their roster. Calvin Johnson has them hamstrung right now.

My gut feeling is that Carr wants to test the Market

It appears he is the number 1 free agent CB this year. I would guess that the Chiefs have given him an offer around the same as Flowers contract and he thinks he can get more on the open market. I think this year he is right and honestly I don’t think he is worth more than Flowers. I know the argument will come up but I just don’t think he is a #1 CB in this league. He will get the chance to prove me wrong this year. He will get top #1 money from someone in the league and he will have a chance to play in the sun out of the shadow of Brandon Flowers. Carr has proved a lot in this league coming from a small school and going late in the draft. I think he has a chip on his shoulder and wants to prove he is the #1 CB.

I agree with this

chiefsman! - February 15, 2012 via mobile reply

Someone should remind him of Larry Brown before his head gets too big.

Or Stanford Routt.

Yep

Routt should be a cautionary tale for a player like Carr…their situations are remarkably comparable IMO. While Routt may have gotten paid big time last year, he had a horrid year last year is in a potentially precarious situation right now.

It's weird how corners who jump teams to become "the man" often sink

Better to stay here, with Flowers and Berry around you, than become another Nnamdi, Clements, Routt, Brown, DeAngelo, etc., etc.

I think Nnamdi will turn it around

the entire Philly defense went to crap this year.

True, although that tattoo'd guy did pretty well

And even though I’m stating the obvious here, it seems that corners who have an above average/good corner on the other side stay consistently good, where guys who jump ship drown. But, money talks I suppose.

Holy shit, another one….Carter/Hasty>Carter in Denver

Agreed

Nnamdi started to come around, but the dude suffered mightily the first half to 3/4ths of the season with the Eagles. Still, there seems to be something to this.

He is a man corner

and I think they had him mostly playing zone at the beginning of the year

yep

With that said....

My dream situation would be to get Bowe and Routt signed. Tag Carr and trade him for picks even if it is just a 2nd or 3rd.

there you go

:)

I was just typing the same thing. I think you could easily get a 2nd for a Carr deal

but, the team that Carr is them traded to would have to negotiate a long-term deal with Carr prior to the deal, otherwise they’re on the hook for a big cap # for a 1 year deal

Chiefs_KC - February 15, 2012 reply

Yeah that is the risk with it....

Worst case scenario someone would give up a 5th-6th rounder for him and we could dump the salary. Basically let teams bid for him.

Just a questions are Franchise tags guaranteed? Obviously the organization would look bad tagging then cutting a player but I’m just curious.

When is the deadline

to place the TAg on players again?

hugechiefsfan - February 15, 2012 reply

.

Here.

fully guaranteed

as soon as the player signs them…

nmchief - February 15, 2012 reply

It's what we did for Cassel

If a team has the need and the cap space, it could be totally doable and worth it.

I could live with this

Obviously, I’d like more than just one pick…but hey, it ain’t a perfect world.

If both are being difficult (as in Carr and Bowe)

The Routt option would me it the most sensible to overpay a little for Bowe, tag Carr, and trade him as part of an overall package for RG3.

Carr is a better trading chip than any draft pick right now.

Carr + our 1st + our 3rd

to STL for their pick?

TRSChief - February 15, 2012 reply

hes not a no. 1 corner

I'm be more than happy if they can sign Routt before "regular" FA starts to the same contract that Carr's camp has rejected

opens up so many more options. can then tag Bowe if necessasry and a #2 CB is locked up. Carr goes wherever. Best case scenario would be to sigh Routt, work out a long term deal with Bowe, and tag and trade Carr

Chiefs_KC - February 15, 2012 reply

Best case scenario

Would be to get long term deals worked out with Bowe and Carr.

Best case scenario is that, plus

Routt decides to sign here for really really cheap because, hell why not – it’s a best case scenario!

TRSChief - February 15, 2012 reply

I think if Routt were to sign a contract with anyone now, it wouldn't be as much as people think

When FA starts, he will be the the 3rd or 4th best CB on the market.

And the #3 CB on the market isn't going to get paid?

I think it really depends on what the team has.

If they dont have a legit #1 CB then Routt could get $9mil/yr. If most teams looking at him are looking for a #2 CB then Routt is going to get $6-$7mil/yr. If Carr is wanting $10-$11/yr and we can sign Routt for $7mil I could see Pioli letting Carr walk. If Carr on ly wants $9mil/yr and Routt wants $8/yr then there is no reason not to sign Carr… Numbers game really.

I think Routt will get a contract in the 4-6 a year range with incentives.

I think care is wanting 10+ a year

Antonio Cromartie was the #3 CB last year

and his deal was 4 years/$32 million

You think people are thinking Routt is going to sign for more or a lot more than that?

$8 mil per is a very healthy contract for a CB.

Given his release, and the general nature of the beast with FA

I’m guessing he gets 7 mil a year.

Agreed

And that’s about right for a very good #2 CB under the current cap

This is what I was getting at...

Hmmmmm, looks more like leverage to me

Soon to be free agent gets to see what the team can sign Routt for. Perhaps he can then see what the market is beforehand and can then realize the value of the offer on the table (good or bad). Vice versa, Pioli gets to see the value of another free agent CB.

Dallas Chief - February 15, 2012 reply

a bit confused here

Free agency does not start for a couple weeks. Does that not apply to players who have been cut? I assume Player contracts end when FA starts??

fairmont - February 15, 2012 via iPhone app reply

Players who are not under contract can sign at anytime

since Routt was cut before the end of the league year he can sign whenever

Cut players can be signed at any time

Routt was released by the Raiders, his contract is not expiring.

http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/position/CB/2009-10

That is what I thought just wanted some clarification

Thanks King, cheap, and saskwatch!

fairmont - February 15, 2012 reply

2009-2010 CB contracts

If the Chiefs are serious about Routt he should be signed today and not allowed to do any more visits.

Pioli already has talked with Carr’s agent and knows what he wants. If Routt is a better value I don’t really have a problem with that.

that way

Pioli can put the ‘extra’ money else where… like in Guard (Nicks) or NT (Soailia??)

I agree...

Why mess around. You know by now if the Carr situation is going to work out or not.

The reality is, Pioli already has a pretty good idea if Carr is coming back or not.

Yep

agreed...

so feel free to spill the beans!!! I guess we’ll find out if/when the Chiefs sign Routt before FA.

later today?

Very true

They’re either in “quibbling” stages or they’re nowhere close.

IF they’re nowhere close, you need to lock down a viable replacement now. Get Bowe signed, then tag Carr for trade value (or even just to keep for one more year to have the baddest secondary in the land for a year)

^^^^ This ^^^^

Cosigned.

interesting tweets on the topic

The main focus has been Carr v. Routt. Another angle of consideration is Routt v. Sabby/McGraw. If NFL changing to passing league…

I could envision using Routt in that role as the underneath D-back in the big nickel. Chiefs ran a 3-4 as much as nickel.

the importance to field 3 safeties in the nickel is not as important. Another CB means less help and more chances to send Houston/Hali

Cordell@TheFilmRoom on Twitter

you want KC to be aggressive in FA?

who wouldn’t be happy with Carr AND Routt ???

and… Bowe

I would be very happy with that, but I doubt it happens.

Flowers, Carr, Routt, Arenas, Berry and Lewis. Best secondary in the NFL and it would not even be close.

Incredibly expensive

But hey, maybe in a passing league it’s time to pump the most money into the secondary and pass rushers…

Teams can't beat us if they can't Pass or Run

True

With last year's offense

I guess we’d have a lot of ties.

Correction

All we have to do is score more than them…at least I’ve heard that’s how it works.

Allowing fewer points also works.

Or so I’ve heard.

Heh

That was talked about on 610am

They had a local radio guy from Oakland on. He said that Routt is much better being able to play the ball and not trying to shut down a % of the field. He said S would be his best fit with his playing skills.

I'd rather sign Soliai and either Routt or Carr

Or even add Steven Tulloch at SILB.

But I also think Brown has a good shot at emerging at CB

Carr v. Route is way different than Carr v. Sabby/McGraw

The former is a tough call, the latter is a no-brainer.

No Sabby!

Whoops

I meant to say Routt v. Carr VS. Routt v Sabby/McGraw but you all knew that right?

Maybe he knows more about being a safety than I give him credit for

but paying $10 mill to a guy to learn how to be a safety doesn’t make a lot of sense. What I’m really trying to say is Routt is going to command a lot of money and with that amount of money, he’s a guy you’d want on the field A LOT. We already have a safety being paid a lot of money and we hope we have another corner (Carr) about to be paid a lot of money.
I’m just not seeing the value in signing Routt.

$10 mill a year*

who says they will pay him $10 mill/year?

You've got me there

I’m going under the assumption someone is willing to pay him close to $10 mill to play corner.

He just got cut from a contract like that for underperforming

That’s gonna hurt him

good info stagdsp

niageriannit1 - February 15, 2012 reply

keep carr and sign routt

is there any possibility of keeping carr and signing routt? i think routt could add a new deminsion to our defense in that he could take away atight end in nickel or dime coverage. the chiefs r gonna have MORE THAN ENOUGH cap room to make this happen!

How do we know Carr does not wanna leave?

If that is the case we should sign Routt and tag Carr. Use Carr as trade bait. I gaurantee someone will give 2 second rounders for him.

As much as I like Carr

This would be ideal.

I have a feeling the tag is going on Bowe.

I have been saying all along that Bowe gets a new deal first

and Carr gets the tag.

but, we’ll see

I think this is the more likely scenario.

I guess the question is which player thinks they are worth more than they really are.

I think Bowe will want to be paid on par with the great players (Andre Johnson and Fitz), and I really don’t think he is worth that. The tag makes him prove he can be consistent one more year before he gets that contract.

One thing to remember too...

Bowe was a first round pick and has already played on a decent salary. Carr was at or close to league min. most of the years he played.

idk how he can prove to be more consistent than he has

essentially been a 1000 yd receiver in 4 of his first 5 years
played in all 16 games in 4 of his first 5 years
70-80 catches per year

He is a very good receiver and should be paid around 5-7 highest paid reciever, but do you think he is on the same level as Calvin Johnson or Andre Johnson?

He would be if he didn't drop so many damn balls.

Exactly.

Considering who's been throwing to him?

Yeah I do.

not quite

but, again, we have no evidence that he’s expecting a “megatron” deal.

I think if he is happy with a deal that pays him around 5-10 among receivers he is signed.

I worry though, if he was willing to sign that deal why has he not been signed.

My prediction. Bowe is tagged, Carr is signed or walks.

The debate over Bowe continues

There are folks who think he’s a legit number 1. And folks who think he’s a subpar #1. “But look at his numbers, look at those drops.” True some have been heart breakers. Some are on him, but at the same time, some are on who’s been throwing him the ball. And in what conditions – ie did it really make any difference that he didn’t catch that one?

As MN pointed out in his amazing TJax piece, numbers don’t tell us everything, especially if we look at them in a vacuum. Personally I think you really have to consider who has been throwing to Bowe to get a complete picture. Huard/Thiggy/Croyle/Cassel/Palko… And still he puts up the numbers he has over his career. That says a helluvalot to me.

I do remember him dropping a TD pass in the endzone against the Raiders.

Yea it made a difference he did not catch that pass…

Hence the

… some have been heart breakers. Some are on him… comment. BUT did we really think we were going to go deep into the Playoffs this year? Personally at that point int he season (VS at the beginning when all those outta the wood work, SUCKFORLUCK’ers were popping up) I didn’t really care if we won that one. At that point in the season, I’d rather have the draft picks. Giving our overall consistancy or rather inconsistency. Yes we’d won 2 outta those last 3. Yes we were doing better with RAC. and Yes we had beaten the GB Packers. But were we gonna do amazing things in the playoffs? With our O? And lack of ability to score? Even if Bowe had caught that one? No, I don’t think so. So he dropped it. He wasn’t dropping passes in the endzone all season. It’s not the same deal as when Lee Evans dropped his against NE.

Would have rather of seen us in the playoffs than Denver.

I've seen us 'squeak' into the playoffs

to get blown out/lose in the first game enough times already. I would rather get into the playoffs on a strong team that has some serious momentum. I would rather us really earn our way in and then prove all of them naysayers who breeze over us as a small market after though, eat a whole lot of Crow.

all the while with questionable QB play

with the exception of 2010

must remember too that he has two strikes against him on a lengthy

dammit

games lost due to performance enhancements, alcohol, yada yada

those numbers without a good QB..I fear he wants to play with a better QB

kc571 - February 15, 2012 reply

The downside to that is

Good QB’s spread the ball around to more targets. Bowe would get looked at less.

2010 he was the only receiving option. (with occasional doses of Moeaki who was still running wrong routes and making rookie mistakes)

TRSChief - February 15, 2012 reply

In theory

It could also increase his touches because a GOOD QB knows when and where he’ll be open before he actually gets there.

Bowe has less leverage

because there are other very good WRs hitting free agency…the most desperate teams will have their choice.

That said, I think Bowe is an elite WR & deserves to get paid as such. It sounds like he wants to stick around, and he probably will IMO, with a Top-5 contract.

tag carr

i dont see them tagging carr. bowe prob gets tag. he’s more important to chiefs than carr. they need to sign all three. stop jacking around amnd spend that money, clark

If Bowe is more important

then why not just sign him?

I think they probably will

yep

I think Bowe is more important and they put some more effort into it.

He’s homegrown, has come into his own, is damn good receiver and we all have seen what happens to our O when he’s not on the field.

2 to tango

i want them to re-sign all of them bowe, carr routt

Nicks, Manning, Orton.......

So Manning will be #1 Qb

and Orton, Cassel the backups? I can live with that. Really I can. Hell we could even dump/trade our number 3 then. :)

Trade Stanzi for 2 first rounders.

He is the next Tome Brady.

We would have needed him to play the last game of the season ala Matt Flynn for that to happen.

But one can dream.

What if.

We take the two first round QB’s and go after RGIII

Routerunner - February 15, 2012 reply

Excuse me getting two post mixed up.

Another post mentioned if we put exclusive right on Carr and another team makes an offer to him. If we opt not to match the offer we lose Carr but gain two first round picks. If we picked up Routt we can lose Carr and not miss a whole lot of production. With the two first rounds we gain we could make a move for RGIII. Actually with an ever so slight lose at CB but a big big gain at the QB position.

Routerunner - February 15, 2012 reply

No one is going to give up two 1st rd picks for Carr

Chiefs_KC - February 15, 2012 reply

I'd take just one first rounder for him. Or a 1st and a 2nd.

Exactly my point..

I can see getting routt, not carr

we take a step back, and they’ll hold routt up as a big free agent signing.

How is Routt a step back?

Jalil Brown would be a step back. Not Routt. Especially not with Flowers opposite of him.

Because Routt isn't as good as Carr

Routt was very good as a #2 CB

Arguably better than Carr. We’ll see how Carr does if he’s expected to be the #1 cover guy on another team.

His salary last year seems to tell me differently.

Which is why he got cut

vastly overpaid. These aren’t Crazy Al’s raiders anymore.

You do know the difference between a #1 corner and a #2 corner, right?

you do know your wrong about routt being better don't you?

i’ll wager that when both are signed, Carr’s deal is worth more wherever they sign.

To be fair

Someone will sign Carr as a #1 CB… and Routt will be signed as a #2 CB. We’ll have to see how Carr handles being the top dog before you can say who’s better.

You do know that crack kills, don't you??

And if Carr's asking for 12 mil a year or something asinine

Can we justify giving him that kind of money?

If he wants that much...

good riddance

I'd guess the Chiefs are offering something around $7m per year

And he’s looking for $9-$10m.

Jalil Brown would be a step back off the Burj Khalifa.

Routt pretty much=Carr

Carr hits the open market, Gunther will

be all over him if they can get their salary cap situation straight

They dont have the money to sign their own guys...

They are going to have to cut so much depth it isnt going to be funny…

same with Pittsburgh

We get to play a lot of cash strapped teams in 2012

maybe...

he’s just staying another day for the BBQ.

That sounds good

maybe he and Romeo will be at Bryants this afternoon

*Oklahoma Joes

Z-man, fries

damn you

don’t say those words.. we don’t have BBQ like KC. That’s one thing I miss about living in KC, the BBQ

KansasCityShuffle - February 15, 2012 reply

+1

I keep reading how Routt was the most penalized player of 2011

Who wants to be a dear and give me the link of player rankings by penalties. Can’t seem to find one anywhere.

http://m.fantasysp.com/player/2027385/nfl/

Pittsburgh Chief had it linked up above

saw that. I want the player rankings

KansasCityShuffle - February 15, 2012 reply

Tag Routt

Question for someone smarter than me.

If KC uses the franchise tag, say on Bowe, and then either trades or signs him long-term, would they then be able to use the tag again on Carr? In essence, what I’m asking is: if a player is tagged and then traded/signed long-term (which in essence would remove the tag from them) could the tag them be used on another player?

Also, do they still have the “transitional” tag in the new CBA?

I don't think they can

The Tag gets applied at some point before FA starts but not very long before

From everything I have read...

It is a one time shot deal. You have to tell the league who you put the FT or TT on and that is it.

And you can only use one of the FT/TT correct?

Or can you use both? And what’s the difference again? The compensation in terms of money for the player and how much a team would have to give up to sign them away?

I thought the Transition went away

You only get to use the FT once per year.

Do the Chiefs receive any compensation if Carr leaves? Like a draft pick?

ChiefsNfl - February 15, 2012 reply

I'm probably wrong like usual..

but I don’t see why. His contract is up, he can do whatever he wants.

Yes is the short answer

Long answer is it takes into account the contract he signs for vs the contract for the players we sign.

Now I'm confusted

If we lose Carr & don't sign any big deal free agents we'd probably get a pick sandwiched between the 3rd & 4th round (the highest compensation)

But if he leaves, and we sign a big name like Soliai, they would pretty much cancel each other out & we’d likely get nothing. There’s no set formula (that I know of), the owners decide these things in their off-season meetings.

Look at it like this...

You lose a guy who signs a 5yr/$60mil deal. Lets call him an A player.
You sign a guy to s 3yr/$15mil deal. If the NFL sees that as a C player contract.
You would get a pick that the NFL views as compensation for going from an A player to a C regardless of position.

i'm not confused anymore

This is starting to worry me a bit

I want Carr, but would take Routt if we can’t get Carr. Carr is #1 preference by far, though. Pure speculation, but Carr made some comments at the end of the season that raised a red flag for me. Can’t find the quote, but something to the effect of “it’ll be a hard decision because he’s been here 4 years, but the chance to go someone closer to home (i.e., Detroit) would be something that may make it hard to stay.” Something like that. I’m worried that Pioli wants Carr, Carr wants a shitload to stay in KC, KC is unwilling to pay, but Detroit (or someone else) will pay. Ugh, I hope I’m wrong.

K_Karsten - February 15, 2012 reply

As noted above

Detroit doesn’t have the money to pay him.

chiefs_fan_forever - February 15, 2012 reply

The thing I see in this has been mentioned somewhere up there ^^

Routt would bring greater speed to the corner position. I mean he is 6-1 and ran a 4.27 at the combine. That’s a freak of nature in my book. Throw in the fact that he went against Oakland’s speedy receivers every day in practice so he knows their tendencies. That has to be worth something.

And I am one that want to get Carr and Bowe signed at all costs.

chiefs_fan_forever - February 15, 2012 reply

OK, let's toy with the Chiefs signing him.

I’m not absolutely sold that this means Carr is out of KC. There’s a couple of scenarios that could happen:

#1.) We keep all three and have a stable of badass DBs to cover in a league that is becoming more an more pass happy.

Sign all three and trade one in a move to get a QB in the draft…

What the? Format error. Should obviously read #1 and #2.

i think it happens when you use the number sign

down here

I could be wrong though, but it happened to myself too.

I like both of those options

2a) Sign Routt and Bowe, FT Carr, and trade him for pics we then use to get a QB.

Or really going with your number 2, which would you FT/Trade?

Tough one.

Flowers is probably worth more… but Carr is no slouch. I like them both, so it’s a wash. On one hand Carr is the bigger CB, and isn’t worth as much in a trade. On the other hand, Flowers is a little better, and could net more in a trade. I suppose if it meant getting a real franchise QB, I’d give Flowers up in a heart beat.

IF we were able to keep Routt AND Carr?

Well, yeah.

So in this scenario.

You trade Flowers, sign Routt and franchise Carr. Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense seeing as you’d leave yourself open to the possibility of Carr leaving after next season and being left with only Routt to show for all this. I would have to think Carr would certainly be the one traded since Flowers is signed long-term.

Yep

Sign Bowe and Routt, FT and either Keep or Trade Carr.

Where did I say Carr gets tagged?

I think Carr gets resigned outright.

And besides, even in your scenario, we’d have Routt AND a drafted franchise QB to show for it. Plus we still have Arenas and Jalil Brown. Brown’s unproven I know, but has a ton of potential.

Routt has more to do with Bowe than Carr....

You bring in Routt and make him think you are signing him. Carr’s agent thinks they won’t use the tag on Carr, and he prepares for free agency. Bowe’s agent then thinks he will get tagged, and works out a deal, because he’d rather get $20M guarenteed than the $9.5M. It’s better for Bowe to get a deal than be tagged for injury reasons.

If you pull it off and Bowe signs a deal, you can always tell Routt goodbye and tag Carr at the last moment.

Wizeguy - February 15, 2012 reply

Interesting thought.

Your ideas are intriguing to me

and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I'll get to work on development

Wizeguy - February 15, 2012 reply

Wise, Guy!

Beefcakess - February 15, 2012 reply

Routt will have a very hard time making the money he did in Oakland.

It was a pretty iffy contract anyways. He’s good, but not THAT good. Plus, he took a step back last year. He didn’t play up to his contract and it will hurt him now that he has been cut. Chiefs would be smart to pick up Routt with a cheaper contract, Sign Bowe, and Franchise Carr. Then, come draft day, use Carr as trade bait. Essentially you might take a small step back in talent at the corner position, but you can cut quite a bit of cap room, as well as pick up extra or better talent in the draft. In the end KC can get more bang for their buck if they sign Routt and Franchise Carr.

Nathan4288 - February 15, 2012 reply

Also,

Never underestimate Pioli’s ability to low ball players. For real, the guy is a shrewd business man.

Interesting

What about signing Routt (He must be interested if he staying another day) and using the tag on Carr. I think Carr could be worth a 1st rounder next year so you trade him to the Rams with our 1st, 2nd and 4th round pick this year and grab RGIII. The Rams can drop back pick up picks and a #1 CB. They can still get a top tier tackle Jonathan Martin. We get our QB of the future and can still sign o-line in free agency or a tackle in the 3rd round.

mysonmylife - February 15, 2012 reply

That sounds like an awful lot to give up in my opinion.

A very good young corner and a 1st, 2nd and 4th?

chief Stevie_k - February 15, 2012 reply

i agree but....

if you look at the trade chart it would take that to get the 2nd overall pick in the draft. if we just wanted to trade picks for it it would take two 1st and a 2nd rounder to move up from the 11th spot to the 2nd.

mysonmylife - February 15, 2012 reply

I hope they sign him, place the tag on Carr and sign Bowe to a deal.

Jeremy Daniel - February 15, 2012 reply

People need to stop judging Routt on one season.

This is why Pioli has success. He looks at statistical anomalies (leading the league in PI for one season, but then recognizes its place. All it takes is for GMs to show the same ignorance half of the AP fan base is showing to devalue Routt’s worth.

Pioli isn’t interested in Routt, 2011, he is interested in the actual Routt.

Whether this is a ploy, whatever, I’m sure the interest is real.

Bowe and Carr are playing a game of chicken

and I would say they are using Routt to change that eqation.

If its an indication, they are not going to offer Carr anymore then they put out for Flowers. But Carr’s agent and Bowe’s agent know, who ever signs the other gets francised. So neither will sign.

But if Routt is in the equation, if Carr wants to stay, he stays for Flowers type money probably, if not they are going sign routt and francise Bowe, game of chicken over. Bowe is the cheaper francise so this works out best for them.

Bigcherokeechief - February 15, 2012 reply

This is probably the closest statement to the actual truth.

The agents have been trying to work the Chiefs for more money. Both know that their players CAN go elsewhere and still get paid. They also know that the Chiefs are extremely frugal about their spending (read: cheap). Routt changes the game. If they sign Routt, and I’d be okay with it, they change the game. They can focus on signing Bowe and if he won’t sign, tag him. With Routt on the roster, Carr can walk. It would suck to let him walk for nothing, but Pioli already screwed that up by not signing him sooner. Now he pays. Routt is a pretty good consolation prize though. It’s better than having to waste a pick on an early CB or promoting an unproven Brown. I don’t think our defense gets worse with Routt… it might even get better.

The most important point for me to make though is this: Do NOT sign both Carr and Routt. We need that money to go somewhere else, like Solial or Nicks. Carr + Routt is not equal to Carr or Routt + Solial or Nicks in terms of making us better. I’d rather hit Solial and make the defense a beast since it looks like Gregg will retire.

"Pioli already screwed that up by not signing him sooner"

lot of assumptions in that statement

Well Carr said as much when he was interviewed

You could say that he was asking for too much, but his asking price last offseason certainly was far less than this offseason.

Exactly. Thank you very much.

No, just a bunch of 20/20 hindsight.

Would you not agree that it would have been better to sign Carr when we had the chance to sign him for $6-7 mil per year a year ago than the $8-10mil he is likely looking for now?

I didn't see/hear the interview

so he said that he was willing to sign for $6-7m last year, and now he wants $8-$10m?

No

But he did say basically that ‘we had the opportunity to sign him last offseason’ and we didn’t make him a priority.

I think he would’ve taken less than $6 mil per last year…maybe a lot less.

I think they're a lot of assumptions we can safely make at this point.

Carr has said in interviews he was willing to re-sign to a long term deal last summer. In fact, it’s part of why he took so long to sign his tender. He was hoping that the Chiefs would be willing to negotiate a more permanent deal to keep him in KC.

But once he signed his tender, it apparently kept the Chiefs, by rule, from negotiating a long term deal with him during the season due to the jump in his salary.

So Scott Pioli rolled the dice and bet that he could tender Carr, focus on other signings, and still re-sign him to a team friendly deal at the end of the year. Carr had an outstanding season and that gamble backfired.

Great analogy.

Pioli played the long game. Gambled on being able to sign Carr at the end of the year and has lost the hand. Now he’s trying to recover. Carr (and Bowe) are bluffing in the current hand and Pioli’s trying to call their bluff by raising with Routt. Now, maybe he loses this hand too, but he could be ahead in the game if he’d done the long-term deal with Carr last year and saved himself the headache. Carr has been solid since his rookie season. It’s hard to disagree. He’s probably the top #2 CB in football arguably. This whole situation smacks of stupidity.

Folks that keep saying we should have signed him sooner

need to read up on the 30% rule in the CBA

Which did pose a problem after he signed his tender.

We could have easily gotten it done before that.

The fact is... Carr gave the Chiefs every opportunity to come correct.

They didn’t do it. They play the cheap game. Why do we expect differently?

Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if they fail to sign all of them. They’ll use the tag on Bowe. Then they’ll try to sell us some sunshine covered b.s. on how the team is better without Carr.

2010 was his first decent season

you would have been willing to give him a big or at least bigger contract afterwards?

Yes.

For a 5th round pick who started every game of his career, showed improvement every season, and just had a breakout year, I’d be willing to roll the dice on a sizable (but not Flowers big) contract.

And in this specific scenario I’d have been proven right.

I don't think the Chiefs are offering Carr anything close to Flowers type money

Of course they aren't. But that's probably what he wants. Something CLOSE to Flowers type money.

I would be for the signing with a few caveats:

1.) Should not be a replacement for Carr.
2.) If they are considering him at safety
3.) He realizes his real worth is far less than he was paid in Oakland.

Nick Britt - February 15, 2012 reply

Who would you like to see as Carr's replacement, then?

Because there is a very real possibility that the Chiefs aren’t going to be able to re-sign him.

Very, very real.

Routt won't replace Lewis.

BUT

He will help out when covering the Larger receivers and TE’s and who knows, he may be a better fit than Lewis. He’s Bigger,Faster and has Coverage ability. Now don’t get me wrong b/c I really DO like Lewis but you can’t ignore some of the physical attributes that Routt clearly has.

Ninjaman - February 15, 2012 reply

the market is too good for someone to convert to safety for a job….

kc571 - February 15, 2012 reply

Another option would be to sign Routt and franchise/trade Carr

I think he is worth a 2nd rounder, but I don’t see many teams willing to give that up.

What do we gain out of signing Routt and not getting anything in return for Carr? That is a huge gamble.

Nick Britt - February 15, 2012 reply

so.....

Are we ready to call Javier Arenas a bust? Did we really use a second round pick (acquired for Tony G) on a nickel DB/kick returner? If we did, then that was a huge Pioli mistake. I always thought that Arenas was drafted for insurance if Carr or perhaps Flowers didn’t work out. With all this Routt talk, we’re admitting Arenas was a bad pick. Thoughts?

Arenas was drafted to play nickle and return kicks.

And he does both of those things very well. He’s not going to replace Carr, though.

I know but

should you use a 2nd round pick to fill that need?

That's questionable.

But those were two huge areas of need filled by one player. Chiefs hadn’t had a good returner since Dante Hall, and nickle corners are extremely important in today’s NFL. The Chiefs play more nickel than base defense.

I see your point

I just don’t think 2nd rounders should be drafted as situational down players as opposed to starters. With the league becoming pass happy, it doesn’t hurt. But it does hurt that Carr was a 5th round pick and Arenas is a 2nd round pick and we’re not even talking about Arenas being able to move into the #2 CB spot. Also, McCluster was drafted for kick return duties as well. I admit it was a need, but a need that also could have been filled in the 5th or 6th round if all you wanted was a kick returner and situational down player.

I'm with you on Dex.

But I think filling two big holes with one player was arguably worth the Arenas pick in the 2nd.

I just think

that if Arenas can’t at least be a #2 CB, he was a complete reach in the 2nd.

lol.

calm down.

bamachief5558 - February 15, 2012 reply

I'm perfectly calm

calmer than you are :p

Arenas is a baller.

I wouldn’t be too concerned about it.

If nothing else, I’m perfectly happy with this guy being our main return man and nickel corner.

bamachief5558 - February 15, 2012 reply

I mean I will take him.

This dude is a freak athlete. He has the second fastest 40 yard dash in Combine history, I believe. Right behind Chris Johnson, and this dude has size on Carr. I wold love to see what Romeo can do with him.

Not saying I think he should be a Carr replacement necessarily, but I wouldn’t mind seeing him on the team.

bamachief5558 - February 15, 2012 reply

Funny

watching @ArrowheadAddict have to explain free agency to Nick Wright on Twitter.